To think the water companies should be renationalised?

[jaundicedoutlook]

No tap water in Tunbridge Wells and other parts of Kent since Thursday.

SE Water set up a half arsed couple of bottle stations that ran dry within hours. No proper information on their website about what the issues are and what they are doing - just generic posts about trying to sort it out. Typically we’re getting an hour of tap water in the morning then dry taps. In the meantime they have paid out millions in dividends.

They are a total shambles and yet another example of Britain becoming a basket case.

Is it unreasonable to think the government shouldn’t tolerate this, strip them of their licence, and bring the whole thing back into public ownership?

Our water company is just as inefficient as a goverment department. Doesn't answer for days. It claims it is meeting its service agreement even though we have no water. Makes an appointments to come then doesnt turn up. Sends no one to check as they have other leaks ...

And the problem is, it's going to take billions to update the out of date victorian sewage system - probably close to £1000/household - who wants to pay that because one way or the other the consumer or the taxpayer (the same thing really) is going to have to pay if we want to fix it. To insist the water companies updated the current infructure they'd have to allowed to reclaim it on their bills.

Yes but those billions should have been anticipated. Saved towards over many years. They would have been if there was competition of some kind. It isn't going to get better ignoring it. Just like my water isn't going to come back on before the new year at this rate

It isn’t that hard, in theory, to incentivise management promote efficiency. There is no magic reason why private or public management need to be better than the other. The big difference between the two systems, in a monopoly, is whether surplus revenue is invested in the service or siphoned off into dividends.

Very funny - they've been trying to get the incentives right for years - maybe you should get in contact with Ofwat and share your brilliance with them!

Well I could have written this - only in an entirely different part of the country. I live alone and have had no water for several days. I absolutely understand that problems arise, but the total lack of information is really exasperating me. I am disabled and on the priority list for water deliveries - I have heard nothing and their website is worse than useless.

I’m not sure water company wise there is any evidence that private works better than public/not for profit. The good thing is, ministers in the developed parliaments can set directions/targets for the companies AND regulators to follow, rather than just regulators. There’s a particular blindness in England just now to drought risk, although sewerage pollution is grabbing the headlines.

NHS is too complex to compare to the water industry, elderly care/drug rehabilitation for example have massive impacts on nhs. Underspend in other areas adds pressure to the nhs, just look at the ‘should I go to a&e?’ threads for examples of how underspend in local services puts pressure on the hospitals.

@Palacepicker - they seem to manage it just fine with public sector management in other countries.

Too many useful idiots in the U.K. defending a broken system from which they don’t even personally benefit.

Northern Ireland has a public owned water sector - they still haven't updated their Victorian sewage system to adequate standards either - easy to dream that the Gov would make things better but they don't. Talking to the old boys who used to work in public utilities - they laugh at what they used to get away with - they did fuck all a lot of the time - privatising the industry tightened things up considerably - it's not perfect though - nowhere near.

Article in the Guardian recently that 75% of our water is in private hands, much of it overseas companies

I know the rail network privatisation was an absolute disaster - not that British Rail was ever a shining light - but the lack of investment was always there - the extremely poor timetable coordination with buses and other rail companies was a new thing - you'd think with modern computing they could have fixed this with the right incentives - but either public or private it's like hitting your head against a brick wall - no one wants to invest because the return doesn't occur in the same political cycle as the spend - so it only benefits the opposition (and of course the people - but who gives a toss about them) People in Britain seem to be very short-sighted.

How much worse could the Govt run it? at least it would be cheaper.

We have sewage pumped into rivers routinely, not just when it rains and they have totally failed to up grade drains, sewage and water systems with population growth.

Meanwhile, they have made billions in profit and sent it over seas.

@Palacepicker completely agree, like in most areas, things are not thought about in a long term context. Thinking in short sprints leads to overspend and rework, but regulation won’t pick this up because they’d need to criticise themselves

No it wouldn't we'd still be reliant on Russian Gas - because it was cheap and that's what you'd expect a public owned industry to do. The NHS didn't even hold enough PPE to deal with a pandemic - we import masses of stuff - you're living in a fantasy world. The Gov do not want to bail you out.

Some of the water companies are brilliant - ours is - some are really shit - the need to improve the shit ones is vital - the regulators have become increasingly political which doesn't help - companies are incentivised to provide a level of service determined in part by the local community to insure against disaster events - everything costs money - you want good service when there is a burst pipe it will cost - the water companies will have to prepare to meet the communities requirements. Don't meet those service levels your customers are paying for - you'll be fined. Water companies have to make profits - otherwise what is the point in all that investment and work? You don't object to Tesco making profit - should we bring food supplies into public ownership?

A large part of the reason that these companies were sold off in the first place was to avoid the government having to spend billions in repairing / replacing / upgrading the infrastructure. I think you are 'optimistic' in thinking that government ownership would be any better that the current (dreadful - agreed) situation.

The assets need to be replaced whoever owns them, trouble is private investors will add a %

And as a consequence, the Gov will not renationalise...poison chalice. They had no choice with the railways...although they tried hard to dodge that bullet for a long while. Don't expect anything better soon. Investing in infrastructure doesn't seem to feature highly in the Tory way of thinking and that's the way the idiots vote in this country, low taxes reign supreme.

The inefficient public sector will add a whole lot more.

I think something like 85% of all water was lost to leaks, prior to privatisation. People were told that lead pipes were perfectly safe because the government didn't want to pay for replacements.

Public ownership just didn't work.

Yes but their percentage is agreed upon beforehand and the Gov borrowing money to replace assets still has to pay to borrow - money isn't free.

OP,

"The big difference between the two systems, in a monopoly, is whether surplus revenue is invested in the service or siphoned off into dividends."

Are you aware that government-owned companies have / had to pay massive dividends to the Treasury? I remember reading several years ago that Royal Mail / the Post Office (can't remember which, and pre-privatisation in any case) was unable to make any investment in service because of this.

To be fair they had massive problems with an inaccurate map of pipes. Documentation during the World Wars - especially the second one made things very challenging. Pipes were fixed after bombs - no record was made.

You want a better water system you'll have to pay more, no one want this on their books - not the Gov and not the private sector - the public will have to pay - it's the elephant in the room every time they talk about sewage leaks into the rivers - tax payers/bill payers will have to pay - a lot - no other choice.

This. One of the biggest issues with the railways at the moment is the government micromanaging.

I'm with Welsh Water/Dwr Cymru, which despite being not for profit still manages to have the highest customer charges in the UK.

I also have far more water supply interruptions here in Wales than I ever had when living in England and having United Utilities as my water supplier.