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To think that the Cambridge Dictionary doesn’t know what a woman is?

274 replies

HoofWankingSpangleCunt · 14/12/2022 07:46

Cambridge Dictionary changes definition of woman

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d0d69d58-7b0c-11ed-bcd8-855e06175970?shareToken=145378cb575d0ff12d97278f7355f1c8

This has fucked me right off this morning.

OP posts:
minimarshmallowsmore · 14/12/2022 09:35

akkakk · 14/12/2022 09:30

No - this is tosh... ;)

They have algorithms which analyse usage of words
Those algorithms are broken - they assume that quantity of usage is an indicator of adoption of meaning - forgetting that it can simply be a few people shouting loudly... It is a part of the issue when algorithms are badly written.

The 'people' i.e. society do not in the majority agree with defining a woman in this way - the vast majority of people are fully aware that you are born male / female and that defines you by sex as a man / woman, and however you wish to present is up to you but doesn't and can't change the biology beneath.

Yet a very very small minority of people in shouting loudly mainly online distort the algorithms and you get nonsense like this... so they do decide, they decide by how they set up those algorithms - it is not reflecting popular usage as the majority do not agree with such a definition.

Considering that gender recognition certificates exist and legally you can change your gender and be considered a man or a woman by society based on that, I don't think you can call it a 'very very small minority of people shouting loudly mainly online'. It's an actual thing that exists in the world.

OMG12 · 14/12/2022 09:39

Most importantly, who do we contact to make a complaint esp around the issues of trying to change definitions such as this. I’m thinking especially round the protection of womens spaces (this makes the definition of woman in the Equalities Act even more important) and the gathering of statistics about women and men that drive healthcare, legal and societal policies.

Can we just change this to if you have a penis or have ever had a penis and/or if you have at least one Y chromosome you are not a woman. If you don’t have a penis and never had a penis and/or don’t have a Y chromosome you are a woman. If you don’t agree with this observation in relation to yourself you can see yourself as a third gender, a model which has been successful across very long time frames and geography.

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 14/12/2022 09:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

WifeMotherWorker · 14/12/2022 09:55

minimarshmallowsmore · 14/12/2022 09:35

Considering that gender recognition certificates exist and legally you can change your gender and be considered a man or a woman by society based on that, I don't think you can call it a 'very very small minority of people shouting loudly mainly online'. It's an actual thing that exists in the world.

Which is both sinister and very frightening. A fully grown 16 stone male with a beard, penis and testicles can wave a certificate around and then enter women’s changing facilities in a gym and walk around naked. Or be in prison with a woman. Or a DV refuge with a woman. Or manage intimate care with a frail or vulnerable woman. Or be a Rainbows or Brownies leader and help girls to the toilet.
The list goes on.

It’s not right and it’s not ok. Women need to be protected from this insane misogynist ideology. This may well be pushed through as law but to say society accepts this is way off the mark. Realistically the vast majority of society does NOT support this in any way shape or form.

fancyacuppatea · 14/12/2022 09:57

I'm not a woman anymore.
I'm a female.

they'll come for that next

Heavyraindropsarefallingonmyhead · 14/12/2022 09:58

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 14/12/2022 09:00

“Our dictionaries are written for learners of English and are designed to help users understand English as it is used. We regularly update our dictionary to reflect changes in how English is used.”

OK! So that updated definition helps how?

I give in. I really do. They looked at social media and added all sorts of stupidities to 'the language'. New words used to be a rare treat. Now we get dozens every year, including chest binder this year, that are simply plucked for social media. Where language is used very differently, for different purposes.

But social media is a valid place for people to talk. Just because it wasn't where people used to talk doesn't mean it's not a valid place to see new words/new usage of words

Chest binder is a term I've heard quite frequently. It's an item that's promoted and sold. Why wouldn't it be in a dictionary?

minimarshmallowsmore · 14/12/2022 09:59

WifeMotherWorker · 14/12/2022 09:55

Which is both sinister and very frightening. A fully grown 16 stone male with a beard, penis and testicles can wave a certificate around and then enter women’s changing facilities in a gym and walk around naked. Or be in prison with a woman. Or a DV refuge with a woman. Or manage intimate care with a frail or vulnerable woman. Or be a Rainbows or Brownies leader and help girls to the toilet.
The list goes on.

It’s not right and it’s not ok. Women need to be protected from this insane misogynist ideology. This may well be pushed through as law but to say society accepts this is way off the mark. Realistically the vast majority of society does NOT support this in any way shape or form.

I know you don't agree with it and you think it's sinister and frightening, but it's a real thing and for it not to go in the dictionary you need to be arguing that it's not a thing.

ReneBumsWombats · 14/12/2022 10:00

They know fine well. Whatever pillocks are behind it know very well which of their parents is their mother and which is their father. And if they're wholly straight or gay, they know which class of people they date and seduce. And if they want kids, they know which class of people has the gametes they lack.

ReneBumsWombats · 14/12/2022 10:02

minimarshmallowsmore · 14/12/2022 09:59

I know you don't agree with it and you think it's sinister and frightening, but it's a real thing and for it not to go in the dictionary you need to be arguing that it's not a thing.

A transwoman is most definitely a thing, but she's a transwoman, not a woman. Same for transmen.

fancyacuppatea · 14/12/2022 10:03

You can change your name, you can change your gender...you can't change your chromosomes.

fancyacuppatea · 14/12/2022 10:03

...waiting for a deletion or possibly a ban...

FourTeaFallOut · 14/12/2022 10:06

fancyacuppatea · 14/12/2022 10:03

You can change your name, you can change your gender...you can't change your chromosomes.

You can co-opt institutions, organisations and private enterprises to colonise language though.

akkakk · 14/12/2022 10:08

minimarshmallowsmore · 14/12/2022 09:35

Considering that gender recognition certificates exist and legally you can change your gender and be considered a man or a woman by society based on that, I don't think you can call it a 'very very small minority of people shouting loudly mainly online'. It's an actual thing that exists in the world.

And yet it is still a very minority thing...

GRCs and legislation is merely sound on the wind - it doesn't change the immutable fact that you are born biologically male or female and can not change that. You can have legislation, you can have operations, you can change your name, and you can dress as you wish - you are still biologically male or female as you were born - any belief that anything else can take place is mere fantasy.

That is not to deny that there are those who have mixed feelings about how they identify - society has strong concepts of how a man / woman presents / looks / acts / etc. and it is easy to see that someone who is biologically one may feel more of an association with all the non-bilological elements that society says is the other - but that doesn't make them a different biological sex.

The issue that exists is how society boxes people up and defines them / puts boundaries around them - and absolutely we should allow people to express themselves as they wish - if they feel more 'male' or more 'female' then they can express themselves in that way, where society defines male and female as it does... There is no issue with dress or hair styles, colours, jewellery etc. all of which society uses as a shorthand to define male and female - but none of that changes whether they are a man or a woman underneath - that is biology, it is chromosome based and can't be changed

For clarity we should absolutely separate our understanding that sex is defined biologically and makes you a man or a woman - from the concept of gender or expression where there should be no issue. The problem is that the two are conflated where one is physical and real and the other is internal, expression and feeling. You can change the latter, you can not change the former.

So a gender recognition certificate ultimately should have zero purpose - we should have a society where we have no issue if a chap wishes to wear a skirt to school / work, we should not be bothered if a girl wants to do woodwork and a boy likes to do knitting - all of that is gender stereotyping which should be removed - but it doesn't matter what people want to do, or legislate for there is no human out there who actually has the skills to turn a physical man into a physical woman or vice versa - we are not God, even after surgery it is all about presentation, biologically that person still remains as they were born...

so we need to separate our understanding of language to split these two things - that is why it is important that boy / man is someone born male, and girl / woman is someone born female - however much anyone wishes to that can not be changed - so changing wording in a dictionary simply is an inaccuracy.

More accurate definitions might be:

Man - someone born biologically as a man with male hormones and male physical characteristics

Woman - someone born biologically as a woman with female hormones and female physical characteristics

Transwoman - someone born male, who remains biologically male but wishes to present as a woman and conform to societal stereotypes of woman - may have physical surgery to look more 'female' but still remains male biologically.

Transman - someone born female, who remains biologically female but wishes to present as a man and conform to societal stereotypes of man - may have physical surgery to look more 'male' but still remains female biologically.

It isn't complicated - so you have to ask why is it being made complicated - and the only answer can be because there is an additional parallel agenda - so we should fight that, and dictionaries are clearly a part of this fight because they appear to define language. In fact, they can't change something over which they have no control (biology) and however the language is changed the biology will remain the same - changing the definition of a word doesn't suddenly mean that someone's hormones change ;) so we need to say that it is important to not pander to trends which have no basis in fact, but to maintain accuracy.

SamphiretheTervosaurReturneth · 14/12/2022 10:13

But social media is a valid place for people to talk. Just because it wasn't where people used to talk doesn't mean it's not a valid place to see new words/new usage of words

I didn't mean or say that. But social media is a form of communication at great variance with formal and every day communication. The prevalence of some terms will be far greater on SM than in 'real life' and that prevalence isn't always going to be indicative of a widely held usage, belief, change. It is something that dictionary compilers need to be clear on. Has the nature of dictionaries changed or is this what dictionaries have always been. Is the OED the same kind of dictionary as a dictionary of common terms, slang and colloquialisms? And if the answer is yes then why does the OED currently publish them in separate tomes?

Nothing wrong with change, but it has to be understood, the need agreed and the terms of reference mad clear (quite literally in this case).

Chest binder is a term I've heard quite frequently. It's an item that's promoted and sold. Why wouldn't it be in a dictionary?

It is new this year. It was an observation. They have been around for decades. The addition this year reflects an upsurge in use, for reasons much discussed here.

helpmenamemybaby · 14/12/2022 10:13

minimarshmallowsmore · 14/12/2022 09:35

Considering that gender recognition certificates exist and legally you can change your gender and be considered a man or a woman by society based on that, I don't think you can call it a 'very very small minority of people shouting loudly mainly online'. It's an actual thing that exists in the world.

Of course you can change your gender, in the same way and for the same reason that you can change your favourite colour or the name of your imaginary friend.

The only reason for enshrining this in law is to give male people who claim to have a gender access to single sex spaces for female people.

minimarshmallowsmore · 14/12/2022 10:15

ReneBumsWombats · 14/12/2022 10:02

A transwoman is most definitely a thing, but she's a transwoman, not a woman. Same for transmen.

Do people sometimes use the word 'woman' for that? Regardless of what word YOU would use?

minimarshmallowsmore · 14/12/2022 10:17

akkakk · 14/12/2022 10:08

And yet it is still a very minority thing...

GRCs and legislation is merely sound on the wind - it doesn't change the immutable fact that you are born biologically male or female and can not change that. You can have legislation, you can have operations, you can change your name, and you can dress as you wish - you are still biologically male or female as you were born - any belief that anything else can take place is mere fantasy.

That is not to deny that there are those who have mixed feelings about how they identify - society has strong concepts of how a man / woman presents / looks / acts / etc. and it is easy to see that someone who is biologically one may feel more of an association with all the non-bilological elements that society says is the other - but that doesn't make them a different biological sex.

The issue that exists is how society boxes people up and defines them / puts boundaries around them - and absolutely we should allow people to express themselves as they wish - if they feel more 'male' or more 'female' then they can express themselves in that way, where society defines male and female as it does... There is no issue with dress or hair styles, colours, jewellery etc. all of which society uses as a shorthand to define male and female - but none of that changes whether they are a man or a woman underneath - that is biology, it is chromosome based and can't be changed

For clarity we should absolutely separate our understanding that sex is defined biologically and makes you a man or a woman - from the concept of gender or expression where there should be no issue. The problem is that the two are conflated where one is physical and real and the other is internal, expression and feeling. You can change the latter, you can not change the former.

So a gender recognition certificate ultimately should have zero purpose - we should have a society where we have no issue if a chap wishes to wear a skirt to school / work, we should not be bothered if a girl wants to do woodwork and a boy likes to do knitting - all of that is gender stereotyping which should be removed - but it doesn't matter what people want to do, or legislate for there is no human out there who actually has the skills to turn a physical man into a physical woman or vice versa - we are not God, even after surgery it is all about presentation, biologically that person still remains as they were born...

so we need to separate our understanding of language to split these two things - that is why it is important that boy / man is someone born male, and girl / woman is someone born female - however much anyone wishes to that can not be changed - so changing wording in a dictionary simply is an inaccuracy.

More accurate definitions might be:

Man - someone born biologically as a man with male hormones and male physical characteristics

Woman - someone born biologically as a woman with female hormones and female physical characteristics

Transwoman - someone born male, who remains biologically male but wishes to present as a woman and conform to societal stereotypes of woman - may have physical surgery to look more 'female' but still remains male biologically.

Transman - someone born female, who remains biologically female but wishes to present as a man and conform to societal stereotypes of man - may have physical surgery to look more 'male' but still remains female biologically.

It isn't complicated - so you have to ask why is it being made complicated - and the only answer can be because there is an additional parallel agenda - so we should fight that, and dictionaries are clearly a part of this fight because they appear to define language. In fact, they can't change something over which they have no control (biology) and however the language is changed the biology will remain the same - changing the definition of a word doesn't suddenly mean that someone's hormones change ;) so we need to say that it is important to not pander to trends which have no basis in fact, but to maintain accuracy.

TLDR but I can see this is all just your opinions on the fact that this phenomenon exists. Whether for a minority or not and however angry you are about it, people who have transitioned are often referred to as the sex they have transitioned to, therefore it is a thing and it's in the dictionary.

helpmenamemybaby · 14/12/2022 10:18

minimarshmallowsmore · 14/12/2022 10:15

Do people sometimes use the word 'woman' for that? Regardless of what word YOU would use?

Some people do.

People who don't believe that reality matters or that members of the female sex should be allowed to have a word for themselves.

And people who don't believe that but have been told it is "kind" to pretend that they do.

Why should they get to dictate the meanings of words though?

ReneBumsWombats · 14/12/2022 10:18

minimarshmallowsmore · 14/12/2022 10:15

Do people sometimes use the word 'woman' for that? Regardless of what word YOU would use?

People sometimes use the word "vagina" for "vulva". It's the incorrect term.

What is wrong with the word "transwoman"? Why should it not be used?

helpmenamemybaby · 14/12/2022 10:19

minimarshmallowsmore · 14/12/2022 10:17

TLDR but I can see this is all just your opinions on the fact that this phenomenon exists. Whether for a minority or not and however angry you are about it, people who have transitioned are often referred to as the sex they have transitioned to, therefore it is a thing and it's in the dictionary.

You can't "transition to" either sex.

Sex is fixed and immutable.

Bigdamnheroes · 14/12/2022 10:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ReneBumsWombats · 14/12/2022 10:22

minimarshmallowsmore · 14/12/2022 10:15

Do people sometimes use the word 'woman' for that? Regardless of what word YOU would use?

Or to put it another way: why should female born people not have a word for themselves that means female born and not male born? Without a definition, how do we define who belongs in which category of sport or changing rooms?

It's funny how everyone knows what a woman is when identifying the class that should give up their language and spaces.

DisappearingGirl · 14/12/2022 10:23

Oh blimey this is an ethically interesting one!

In general I agree it's reasonable to update dictionary definitions to reflect use of words in society (whether I personally agree with that use or not).

BUT I think that becomes quite dangerous when it is such a key word relating to humans, society and the law. If "woman" is redefined in the dictionary to include males, does that change the law where it relates to women? I'm not sure!

Also what if, in future, "female" is also changed to include transwomen (some people use this already). Would that mean there is no longer any word in the English language to refer to female humans?

ReneBumsWombats · 14/12/2022 10:25

Would that mean there is no longer any word in the English language to refer to female humans?

Yes, that's the idea.

It's Newspeak in action. Goes along with thoughtcrime.

minimarshmallowsmore · 14/12/2022 10:28

helpmenamemybaby · 14/12/2022 10:18

Some people do.

People who don't believe that reality matters or that members of the female sex should be allowed to have a word for themselves.

And people who don't believe that but have been told it is "kind" to pretend that they do.

Why should they get to dictate the meanings of words though?

"some people do" that's all that was needed here. It doesn't matter what opinion you have of those people.