To think there's nothing left to try (13 month old sleep)

[nurserypolitics]

At my wits end and concerned for my husband's health.

We have been night-weaning and I suppose sleep training DD2 for 2 months. So far, this involves my husband putting her to sleep. She has a bedtime routine (downstairs final breastfeed with me, upstairs for stories, sleeping bag, then placed in cot by him with white noise). She usually grumbles and tries to sit up, and he gently places her so she's lying down again in the cot. Then repeat. The 'norm' is after 5 minutes of this she rolls over and falls asleep, but some nights there are 10-15 minutes of her crying.

Then, if she wakes, he sleeps in the room with her and will usually shush her and then if needed pat her, and then if needed pick her up.

We had a similar approach with DD1 and within about two weeks she woke no more than once or twice a night, and all she wanted was a hand on her back to reassure her someone was there and she'd go back to sleep. We co-slept and this was fine.

So far, DD2 is still waking and crying for an average of ten minutes at least three or four times a night. Some nights she's woken every hour. The odd - very odd - night she's slept for up to 7 hours without a wakeup. Last night she woke at 4, cried for 40 minutes, I gave in and fed her and she fed pretty much till morning.

For a period of this early on she was sick and I co-slept and fed her but tbh it was awful for both of us, DD1 would co-sleep and actually sleep, DD2 co-slept as a younger baby but is clearly not comfy doing so now. She throws her head back and wriggles and can't sleep. If she does feed all night its clear it also makes her uncomfortable in terms of her digestion. So its not a case of persevering with this to get 'perfect' sleep its that there seem to be no other options.

Currently we have:

• Clear short bedtime routine
• Good daytime nap routine
• Goes to sleep in cot (with someone there but usually no patting etc)

If I try to put her down it doesn't work at all, she just wants me to feed her to sleep. DH has had nothing but unbroken sleep for months and has returned to work and can't go on. He genuinely looks unwell.

I would try co-sleeping and feeding her to sleep but a) we'd need to sell our bed to do it safely and b) where we've tried it it clearly doesn't improve things. I don't want to do controlled crying and certainly not cry it out in the sense of leaving her but ended up accidentally doing something not dissimilar a few weeks ago when DH had to go away for a couple of nights and I had to deal with DD1 who kept being woken by the crying and she basically ended up hysterical.

Is there something I've forgotten? We can try something new over Christmas but something needs to change. I have looked up similar threads but everything focuses on night-weaning/getting them fall asleep in the cot or co-sleeping and we've tried all that but its still terrible.

You said there’s nothing left to try… but controlled crying would work. Pick up put down is more gentle but could work too, but takes more time / effort from you.

Shes basically confused - sometimes she cries and gets fed, sometimes she gets rocked, sometimes she gets left etc etc. But every time there is something there to help her sleep - a hand, a boob, rocking her etc. She needs to learn to put herself back to sleep to join the sleep cycles. You need one consistent approach of sleep training and to stick to it.

Agreed. Mixed signals each time she wakes. From what I've read, most just get used to things changing/grow out of needing an adult to help them get to sleep, but anecdotally it seems those who don't have a really difficult time figuring it out if they weren't used to mostly settling themselves before 12 months. I know plenty of people still being woken in the night by 3 year olds, honestly I'm so glad I'm not one of them - it's the prime reason the newborn stage is such torture for me (and as I breastfed both, all nights were solely down to me)

I know I'll get hate for this but I sleep trained both of mine before 6 months (as in they could go to sleep by themselves, they both woke for night feeds until 9 or 10 months). With 1st I had PND and PNA and was a shell of a human being, something had to give, and her falling asleep nowhere but on me (boob), and near on impossible to transfer to crib without multiple wakes, was it. Tried all the more gentle approaches but she hated knowing we were in the room but wouldn't hold/feed her, even though she definitely was not hungry. Eventually left her to cry while I sobbed the other side of the door. After a couple of times she just stopped and ever since has gone to sleep happily, after a few mins of chattering to herself in bed. Even as a toddler she rarely gets out of bed until I go in to get her, even if the wake light has come on. Littler one responded to the gentler approaches (pick up put down method), it took longer but we were both doing better than with 1st so that was fine. Now 10months and has a small feed around 5am a few times a week, otherwise sleeps through or wakes and goes back to sleep himself. The crying approach isn't for everyone, and is the one thing I swore I'd never do. Amazing how that changes when mum and baby aren't sleeping and health of both is suffering greatly 🤷‍♀️ And I don't give a toss what others think, she and I were both suffering mebtally and physically, I stand by the decision in that circumstance.
I never co slept because the odd occasion I had her in bed with me once she was firmly asleep I couldn't sleep, convinced I'd suffocate her.

I don't know if any of this helps, except to say you have to find something which works for you all - and don't feel guilty if you resort to some crying to get all of you some sleep. If you can afford it there are some great sleep consultants around who can support you. Also check when the sleep regression are - because trying to change things during a regression is harder! There is one around either the 12 ish or 18 ish mark I think...?

The one sentence that helped me when we sleep trained DS was....... if you give in you have made all the previous crying pointless and your teaching them to cry harder then you will give in.

Some kids just take longer than others. No one who is happy with their sleeping arrangements chooses to sleep train so I'm sure what ever it was before this must be easier.

Will she take a bottle? I bottle fed so might be slightly different, but I night weaned by changing to water if she woke in the night, so she wasn't as interested and eventually stopped waking. Could be worth a shot?

I'd just keep on doing what you're doing TBH. She's pretty little; you've not been doing it long. Obviously it doesn't feel like that, it feels awful! But there's no reason to think you won't get there with her. Grabbing naps whenever you can is key IMO - it feels weird, but an early evening nap is brilliant when you know it'll be a broken night.

You have got options but you need to be tough and consistent... sleep training is obviously an option and consider stopping breast feeding. And I know this isn't a popular view (& is why I rarely post of these sorts of threads ...) but I never got into 'feeding to sleep' and followed a strict GF routine .. my DS slept through from a very young age ... of course it might have been just good luck.

Bottle feeding would work. But I understand if you don't want to go down that route.

Also be aware that feeding her for hours on end at night once she has most of her teeth could result in decay.

You really do not need to stop BF. Just decrease the minutes you feed at night and wean her or replace milk with water

Sorry if I've been totally unclear but she isn't being fed to sleep. It has literally happened twice in two months of following this approach and the main reasonithappened last night was we're feeling out of options and like we can't keep doing this which is why I posted.

I included it to say we had a recent enough 'sample' that it wouldn't work, or be an easy alternative (if feeding to sleep/co-sleeoing got both of us enough sleep to function I would do it now). Aside from those two times DH follows an almost precise routine no matter what. The only time she's picked up is if she's upset for so long that she needs to be soothed/calmed before going back in.

The only real difference between this and controlled crying is that he doesn't leave the room and I guess maybe with controlled crying you never pick them up no matter how upset they get? But I dont'reallly see the benefit of that. I always assumed controlled crying was getting them out of the habit of needing to be stroked/held/fed to sleep. But DD has been following this approach for two months and she'll pretty consistently go asleep but then wakes and it gets harder to resettle.

In terms of giving her a bottle the first few weeks DH offered but she 100% isn't hungry and has no interest in it. This is why I feel a bit stuck.

I think you need to be more consistent. I would use controlled crying where you leave the room for increasing intervals. This gives her the chance to learn to settle herself. We did this and did pick them up for a cuddle if they got too upset, then put them down, patted them and left. It shouldn’t take long if you’re consistent.

What's her personality like? Is she very alert etc? My dd was very active and being in the room while she tried to sleep was just a distraction for her.

I would agree a consistent approach to night waking eg. If she wakes, wait at least 5 mins (time it) before going in, patting and then leave. It also helps if you set a time limit on feeding eg. If she takes a full feed before bed, she won't need another feed before xx. Up until that time, resettle by going in, a quick reassure then leave.

The issue is she needs someone there in order to go back to sleep. She needs to learn to fall asleep in an empty room.

We did controlled crying when my dd2 was 8months. I used the super nanny method which is similar to what a pp has said, leaving the room for increased intervals until they fall asleep. She wasn't happy, more crossed crying that she wasn't getting her way but after 2 night we cracked it.

I know it's a pretty decisive method and for some it's not an option. But for us, at the time, it thankfully worked and we've never really looked back since. That 8th old is now 10yo!

I think she just doesn't sound ready, so I'd go back to what you were doing and try again in about 2-3 months.

What have you been doing up to now? Do you go into her room to feed her and that's the part that you want to stop? I managed to night wean DS2 once we were in this stage by introducing a delay before feeding, I'd tried to do this previously by adding new things such as shhing/singing, stroking him in the cot and he just got angry and stood up and clearly didn't understand WTF I was trying to do as it wasn't soothing to him at all when he was expecting to be picked up and fed. When I changed my approach to do everything that I would usually do (walk to him, pick up, walk to chair, sit down, open clothing, feed) but in slow motion so that it took about 5 minutes, he wasn't anywhere near as distressed and it gave me back that control because he knew I was still there to soothe him, I just got more control over when. Before this whole approach I had always gone to him ASAP and tried to get him latched ASAP because I felt terrible that he was crying. So it was useful for me to understand that it wasn't an emergency. I would have lengthened it to 7 mins and then 9 and then longer but actually I didn't need to time it. He just started accepting a delay and often falling back to sleep without me getting to the milk part.

The other thing I did was detach him just before he was asleep and finish off soothing him in my arms. It takes a bit of trial and error but eventually you can do it earlier in the feed.

if you give in you have made all the previous crying pointless and your teaching them to cry harder then you will give in.

I don't think this is helpful and I don't think it's true. Lyndsey Hookway talks about three responses to sleep training: The fast responder, who cries for about 15-20 minutes for about three nights and then sleeps happily ever after. The slow responder who cries maybe up to 45-60 mins for several weeks but does eventually improve and it works, and the non responder who gets more and more worked up and it's really distressing for both child and parent.

If I was going to sleep train personally I'd put a time limit on it as I think that's the kind and sensible thing to do. I think doom mongering like the above is unhelpful and would make people persevere past the point that their instinct is telling them this is wrong. If it doesn't work (fairly) quickly, then the child probably isn't ready or the method isn't right for the moment and best to stop and try something else or wait a while. It probably is helpful to hang onto something that helps you push past the initial wanting to rush in and rescue them after 5 minutes, but I don't think it's true that if you stop you're undoing everything.

www.jofrost.com/controlled-timed-crying-technique-ctct/

Why would you have to sell your bed to co sleep?!!!!

I think a more accurate thread title would be 'to think there's nothing left I am willing to try'. Which is absolutely fine, no-one needs to consider any option they are not prepared to, but it's not true to say you are all out of options. You aren't - it's just that you don't necessarily want to try some of them.

Your problem is that only your DH can settle her, because, in your own words, "If I try to put her down it doesn't work at all, she just wants me to feed her to sleep. DH has had nothing but unbroken sleep for months and has returned to work and can't go on. He genuinely looks unwell."

So, essentially you have created a sleep association that means she will only accept you if you feed her to sleep. So DH has to do it all as she doesn't expect milk from him.

You need to get to a point where she does not expect to be fed to sleep when you try to settle her. So, you can either stop BF, or try a new routine that includes you putting her down but being absolutely firm and consistent that once she has had her bedtime feed you don't feed her to sleep. But this will inevitably involve crying and protests and that will be difficult, so if you are going to try it, you'd need to be consistent.

kellymom.com/ages/weaning/wean-how/weaning-night/

Some really useful suggestions in there for gentle night weaning, OP.

My second two were screechy sleepers. They moaned and grumbled themselves to sleep (like a grouchy whinge but not crying) - if you touched them then all hell broke out. Then they would randomly wake during the night, moan and grumble cry for 5 mins then go back to sleep. I ended up sleeping in another room with earplugs as I could hear them when they really started to cry which was rare. If either of us went near them during the grumble screech waking they would be up for ages. Its like they were annoyed at waking up then grouching themselves back to sleep. We only discovered this when I had a sickness bug and couldn't physically leave the bathroom when they started.

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Is there a reason you can't/dont want to wean her from the breast?

Agree with this. She is used to your husband helping her get back to sleep if she wakes. She needs to learn to do it without him. How to get to that point is the difficult bit. If he or you has the patience then you can gradually lessen the input. Or if not then controlled crying. It's pretty awful but does seem to work for many.

Could she be hungry?

Have you tried offering sleep props that don't involve DH to settle her when shd wakes?

A cuddly toy she's attached to, music playing on a baby monitor that you can turn on from your bedside etc?

Make sure she is warm enough. I found if i followed the guidance about room temp & clothing for toddlers in bed both mine were too cold and woke a lot.