Page 15 | To think controlled crying is cruel

KazMa · 2022-12-12T23:30:59+00:00

DH would like to try controlled crying/sleep training but I am totally against any sort of crying/leaving DS on his own upset. Any advice? Here is current scenario: DS just turned 7 months old and we have been co sleeping since the dreaded 4 month sleep regression, he also breastfeeds to sleep - will go to sleep without it but needs a lot of patting, rocking and walking around so it’s easier just to BF. For a month now I am able to BF to sleep and then leave him in his cot in his own room for nap times and he will sleep 45mins to an hour per nap (3x per day). At night however he will wake up and only go back to sleep if he is laying & feeding next to me in my bed. (Eg, bedtime at 8pm but he’ll wake at 8:45 and won’t go back to sleep.

minimarshmallowsmore · 13/12/2022 21:31

ghostyslovesheets · 13/12/2022 21:28

Ah these threads just keep giving!

I 'sleep trained' all 3 of mine - at no point did they cry for 45 mins - not even for 3

I started by settling them in the room with me there gently patting - then I'd leave - returning if they cried to pat them and say calm soothing things - repeated over 3 nights - they began to sleep through

I was returning to work so needed to sleep!

Is that even sleep training? If your babies cried for 3 minutes once and then slept well thereafter, you could pretty much do that by accident. The OP would have already done it. I would have already done it. My child would have learned to sleep when I went to the toilet one time.

SnackSizeRaisin · 13/12/2022 21:32

minimarshmallowsmore · 13/12/2022 20:40

That's a false dichotomy. My daughter has always been an edge case, I've never met anybody in person whose baby woke up as often as she did when she was a baby. Most people who don't sleep train still end up with a toddler/child who sleeps well. Though I do know people who did sleep train who seemed to have more stress at bedtime than we ever had. Listening to your baby cry themselves to sleep over a monitor for 45 minutes every night as a necessary part of the routine versus a peaceful feed or rock to sleep I know what I'd pick.
Let's say that I had sleep trained her though and she had '"learned how to sleep" that way. She still would have gone through this phase one we'd moved house (since she did know how to sleep through before we moved) and we would have had to repeat the sleep training process. Only harder this time because she's not physically contained in her cot and can voice exactly how she's feeling. I think one reason some people are able to go through with sleep training is that a baby can't speak so you can fool yourself that they aren't genuinely distressed. If my child is sobbing out "Mummy I need you, please come to me, I'm scared" (which is what I hear these days when she wakes up) that's what she would have been feeling when waking up in the night as a baby, only not being able to put it into words. It would be terribly heartless to ignore that.

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It's you who's creating the false dichotomy here. No one picks 45 minutes of screaming over a quick feed to sleep.

TheBoogie · 13/12/2022 21:32

HeatwaveToNightshade · 13/12/2022 21:26

I really can’t understand this attitude. You’d rather your child woke every 2-3 hours through the night, every night until he was 2, rather than have a few nights of crying? Baffling, he (and you) must have been exhausted. Not to mention that he must have done a lot more crying during that time overall than if you’d just sleep trained.

Baffling? Baffling that someone does something differently to you? I wasn't prepared to leave my baby to cry. How is that baffling?

Because I really cannot see how it was better for your child and you and whoever else in the house to wake every 2-3 hours through the night and then have to get the child back to sleep, every night for 2 years. Weren’t you exhausted? Didn’t you think there would be alternatives and that him waking like that would be detrimental to his health and yours?

minimarshmallowsmore · 13/12/2022 21:33

StEval · 13/12/2022 21:31

Sorry to ask a personal question but did you have some sort of traumatic event as a child?
You seem to be projecting an awful lot of your own emotions onto these broken nights which isn't really fair on your child.

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No. And I don't really know what you mean about projecting my own emotions? A lot of people are very keen to make out like my child is disadvantaged in some way by being responded to. I find it weird.

minimarshmallowsmore · 13/12/2022 21:38

SnackSizeRaisin · 13/12/2022 21:32

It's you who's creating the false dichotomy here. No one picks 45 minutes of screaming over a quick feed to sleep.

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In that post I was comparing what I did to what my own friends who sleep trained did. They're the only people I know in real life who sleep trained so I did compare our situations then and now. Sleep training obviously doesn't look the same for everyone.
People often do choose to sleep train just because they'd rather their child fell asleep by themselves without input. Not everybody is at the end of their tether with sleep deprivation.

Wisterialane1234 · 13/12/2022 21:41

We didn't do controlled crying really, I didn't agree with it. We also didn't do the dropping sleep associations stuff and our child sleeps like a champ at 2 and has done since he was about 8 months old. Everyone I know who has done sleep training have ended up with appalling sleepers - but maybe that's just my experience and a coincidence.
We didn't ever co-sleep though, always in next to me bed until 6.5 months then into own room.

StEval · 13/12/2022 21:44

minimarshmallowsmore · 13/12/2022 21:33

No. And I don't really know what you mean about projecting my own emotions? A lot of people are very keen to make out like my child is disadvantaged in some way by being responded to. I find it weird.

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I mean that when you say so emotionally that your child will be loved and cherished its like you are projecting your need to be loved and cherished through your child -you told us she tells you she loves you and that seems more important to you than her wellbeing.

Most parents would be concerned if a 4 year old woke twice per night not relishing the fact.

minimarshmallowsmore · 13/12/2022 21:46

StEval · 13/12/2022 21:44

I mean that when you say so emotionally that your child will be loved and cherished its like you are projecting your need to be loved and cherished through your child -you told us she tells you she loves you and that seems more important to you than her wellbeing.

Most parents would be concerned if a 4 year old woke twice per night not relishing the fact.

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I would agree with you if her wellbeing was suffering but I don't see how it is?

britsabroad · 13/12/2022 21:58

Depends what you mean by controlled crying. We tried the crying out method used by just chill mama, where you leave the room for increasing amounts of time, 2 mins, 4 mins, 6mins etc..... That worked but only when he was a bit older around 16 months. We did try it once when he was younger and he was hysterical so waited until he was a bit older. At 16 months it worked in under 10 mins. Now he sleeps really well (2yrs2months). The whole point is to get them to sleep without any sleep aids - no hand holding/rocking/patting etc because they will only fall asleep with those aids. Unless of course you're happy to sacrifice your sleep. I have a friend who also thinks it's cruel, she has 2 kids (4.5 & 2.5) who are terrible sleepers, and she insists on sleeping on a mattress on a floor next to the youngest ones bed. The eldest one wakes up every night. I personally couldn't do that, and think she's mad. I need sleep. I function much better with it. But each to their own.

Layersoftaytoes · 13/12/2022 22:38

Doo5 · 13/12/2022 08:59

Some of these replies are wild. If your baby thought 'there's no point crying, no one is coming' they wouldn't cry in the daytime either for things.
I did CC with my child and he sleeps 12-13 hours a night and 2 hours in the day. He's 16 months. When I say it's bed time he walks over to the stairs and is smiling when I put him down for the night.
I completely understand it's not for everyone but months and months of interrupted sleep can't be good for anyone. Two nights helping them to self settle (not self soothe, that's different) was worth it for me.

Pointless argument. The baby has the ability to move/access/see their mum/caregiver in the day. At night, they are in a separate room away from them with little to no access.

Judgyjudgy · 13/12/2022 22:40

heartbroken22 · 13/12/2022 00:30

Your kids will treat you how you treat them. It's life's karma. I wouldn't do it.

🤣🤣🤣 you clearly know nothing about the science behind it

Layersoftaytoes · 13/12/2022 22:46

minimarshmallowsmore · 13/12/2022 18:11

I guarantee, if this thread had happened two years ago and I had said I have a 2 year old who I breastfeed to sleep every time she wakes up, I would have been told she doesn't need that and it's a habit she will never break if I don't night wean her. She did get out of that "habit" all by herself, is my point, and I think she will be able to get out of this one when she's ready.
Putting her back into bed and walking away and telling her to be quiet is not tending to her needs. How would that tend to her needs? "It would teach her that nighttime is for sleeping" - I teach her that nighttime is for sleeping by helping her get back to sleep the best way I know how. That places a strong emphasis on the importance of sleep. It's not like we get up and play. If I started physically placing her back in bed, leaving the room, doing it again, over and over, telling her she has to sleep and I won't stay with her, until she gives up and sobs herself to sleep, that would be teaching her that nighttime is for physical battles, crying and misery. I've witnessed that process on Supernanny, it was absolutely horrible and I would never do it to my own child.

People here are saying that she wakes me up singing and I go and sing with her? That's not what happens. She calls me and I tuck her in and then she asks for a lullaby and I sing one. Which is also not earth shattering stuff, singing a lullaby to a child.

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I think what you do is lovely. You’re showing your daughter the true meaning of a strong, unwavered attachment and helping her future mental health ❤️❤️❤️

Layersoftaytoes · 13/12/2022 22:49

ShirleyPhallus · 13/12/2022 14:59

These aren’t healthy sleep habits, for anyone.

If my 2 year old was doing this I’d be pulling out the sticker charts. No way would I have a school age kid waking me up every single night to be sung to.

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Sticker charts 💀💀😂 you can’t be serious… they’re TWO. Stop forcing adult norms onto small children, it’s piss poor lazy parenting, sorry

Bagsundermyeyestoday · 13/12/2022 23:25

Some of these posts are incredibly ignorant, I can only assume we must be talking about different things as people can't be that dumb 🙄
I started sleep training at 8 months because my baby suddenly refused to sleep in his cot and I had to co-sleep which imo wasn't an option because of the SIDS risk, as well as if I went to the toilet he could potentially roll out of bed and get hurt.
I did RESEARCH including looking into long term effects. I got a sleep consultant, who gave me a new sleep routine for the day and I started with a gentle method (me in the room), then a version of Ferber. I never let him cry for more than 5 minutes. It was the best thing for my baby, he was now sleeping about 5 hours more in 24 hours, sleep is restorative for their developing brains. After 2 or 3 nights he went to one wake, and 2 weeks started sleeping through the night (12 hours), plus an extra 2 or so hours during the day as well.
What shocked me most with this was how much more he was sleeping, and what he had been missing out on. Restorative sleep is so important for their little brains to develop.
Everyone should do what they are comfortable doing, but actually do some research before spouting hysterical nonsense 🥱

Judgyjudgy · 13/12/2022 23:53

heartbroken22 · 13/12/2022 00:30

Your kids will treat you how you treat them. It's life's karma. I wouldn't do it.

You seem more interested in your own treatment rather than something that might actually be helpful for your kids

ShirleyPhallus · 14/12/2022 01:11

Layersoftaytoes · 13/12/2022 22:49

Sticker charts 💀💀😂 you can’t be serious… they’re TWO. Stop forcing adult norms onto small children, it’s piss poor lazy parenting, sorry

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Did you misread my “sticker charts” for forcing my toddler in to working 18 hour days down the mines or something? A sticker chart is a totally normal reward system for a toddler and far better than me getting up every night to sing to them fgs

Natsku · 14/12/2022 05:34

minimarshmallowsmore · 13/12/2022 21:46

I would agree with you if her wellbeing was suffering but I don't see how it is?

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Waking up enough to need to be sung to sleep twice a night means she isn't getting a proper nights sleep. I know the difference in my wellbeing when I sleep the whole night through as opposed to when I wake up during the night, there's no reason to believe children don't experience that difference in wellbeing too.

Bagsundermyeyestoday · 14/12/2022 06:32

Natsku · 14/12/2022 05:34

Waking up enough to need to be sung to sleep twice a night means she isn't getting a proper nights sleep. I know the difference in my wellbeing when I sleep the whole night through as opposed to when I wake up during the night, there's no reason to believe children don't experience that difference in wellbeing too.

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This. Restorative sleep. Adults don't function on continuous broken sleep, so why do we assume it's ok for kids?

carefulcalculator · 14/12/2022 06:40

Bagsundermyeyestoday · 14/12/2022 06:32

This. Restorative sleep. Adults don't function on continuous broken sleep, so why do we assume it's ok for kids?

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But adults do function on broken sleep so long as they get enough and wake naturally, historically it was normal to get up in the middle of the night for food etc.

The single long sleep is a product of the industrial revolution, as is 3 meals per day.

The way we know babies function best with the sleep pattern of babies is that is what they do naturally. It is called sleep training because you're training them to override their natural pattern of needs and imposing your schedule.

carefulcalculator · 14/12/2022 06:42

ShirleyPhallus · 14/12/2022 01:11

Did you misread my “sticker charts” for forcing my toddler in to working 18 hour days down the mines or something? A sticker chart is a totally normal reward system for a toddler and far better than me getting up every night to sing to them fgs

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Sticker charts are known to be counter productive and pretty negative, there's a ton of research on it.

loislovesstewie · 14/12/2022 06:48

Not if the baby is waking up every 90 minutes, sorry but that is not getting good quality sleep, not for the baby or the parents. I was that mother and was back to work struggling through the day on rubbish sleep.If parents don't want to do controlled crying that is their business, carry on hoping that the LO will eventually sleep through, not come strolling into the parents bed playing musical beds all night etc, but for some of us getting a decent nights sleep was a lifesaver. My second child was a dream ,he slept well from day 1. And I did notice the difference. Quite frankly I don't care what we did in the past, we would have gone to bed then earlier because we had no electricity, no central heating and would have gone to sleep to keep warm. ( Much like now I agree for some) . Sleep and good quality sleep is essential, being a martyr isn't.

MusicstillonMTV · 14/12/2022 06:49

It is called sleep training because you're training them to override their natural pattern of needs and imposing your schedule.

But a lot of this is just what parenting involves..are you not going to potty train? Is that imposing adult norms? You'll probably sing to your child while they poo on the carpet or something

Pyri · 14/12/2022 07:02

carefulcalculator · 14/12/2022 06:42

Sticker charts are known to be counter productive and pretty negative, there's a ton of research on it.

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They worked for us 🤷‍♀️

carefulcalculator · 14/12/2022 07:12

MusicstillonMTV · 14/12/2022 06:49

It is called sleep training because you're training them to override their natural pattern of needs and imposing your schedule.

But a lot of this is just what parenting involves..are you not going to potty train? Is that imposing adult norms? You'll probably sing to your child while they poo on the carpet or something

No one expects their child not to expel, they just teach them where. The advice on timing of moving out of nappies has varied and is now older. There used to be an incentive to move on from nappies early when handwashing was required, especially once indoor carpets became the norm, again this was not about the child. This would not have been an issue in cave dwellers!

Sleeping and eating are the two areas people most impose rigid patterns onto their children in the early years.

I think we have to view our own 'norms' as being a combination of the society we live in, what we were taught, and what we want rather than some objective right way. My kids are much older and the guidance on lots of things has changed multiple times since the first was born.

carefulcalculator · 14/12/2022 07:17

I was that mother and was back to work struggling through the day on rubbish sleep.If parents don't want to do controlled crying that is their business yes, this is basically my point - the needs of the modern work day and the choice of the parent.

Once we have a robot workforce we will have different sleep views again!