Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Tiny violins out - private landlord having trouble

573 replies

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 12:54

I own a flat that I rent out because it no longer suits my needs to live there and I couldn't find a buyer without making a substantial loss during Covid (due to no private outdoor space).

I try to not be a dick - e.g. I charge under market rate, I don't increase the rent unless in between tenants, I get everything fixed as soon as I can (via management agency), I allow pets/children etc. All things that should be standard but too often are not.

Anyway, I have a tenant who is playing games. Every month for the last three she has had a problem paying the rent. First of all she wanted to move the payment date (fine, circs change, but she was a week after the agreed date), then she was late again, then she decided unilaterally she didn't have to pay because the boiler had broken and I couldn't get a new one installed over night. I reimbursed her for heaters to keep warm and had it replaced as soon as a reputable tradesman could install one - about a week in total. I get this isn't ideal and I offered a £100 discount as a goodwill gesture. She eventually paid.

I hate being a landlord and I am v shortly going on maternity leave with my second child so I need to sell especially as the income is now unreliable to use the equity to buy us a family home.

But I'm scared to put it on the market in case she takes that as free reign to stop paying altogether.

Does anyone have any advice that doesn't include "private landlords" and "scum of the earth" in the same sentence? I wouldn't expect her to let people traipse through her home at short notice and would hope to arrange maybe two open house mornings in Jan to minimise inconvenience - but I also expect her to stick to her side of the contract and pay the agreed rent during this time.

OP posts:
Goodgrief82 · 13/12/2022 18:34

finnmum · 13/12/2022 18:30

@Goodgrief82 Your country is absolutely beautiful. I went to Uni there in 1990s, worked in London in 2000s and raised my kids in London. London especially will always be my hometown. It is just that I now from distance realise how harsh it was for my family there in terms of home (read: property:).

Washington Post 2022: "For the fifth year in a row, Finland has been named the happiest country in the world by the United Nations -sponsored World Happiness Report."

Yes multiple studies and articles on the extreme - world’s happiest and highest rate of alcoholism, depression and suicide.

To make a point, you needn’t have said how “lucky” you feel that your children aren’t subjected to the “full of greed” of the UK

So please don’t then be indignant when someone points out something negative about country. Classic can give it but can’t take it

Monkeytrousers04 · 13/12/2022 18:37

I’m in a similar position. My tenant is on a rolling contract (her choice) and the house is on the market as an investment property. It’s been on the market since June however so I need to do something, either reduce the price or serve her notice and sell it empty. She is a good tenant so I don’t want to do this. Also, I’ll then be paying two mortgages while I wait for it to sell and they have both doubled since the bloody mini-budget. Plus landlords have to pay full council tax if the property is empty. Rock vs hard place. :-(

Puzzledandpissedoff · 13/12/2022 18:41

That's quite interesting how these pictures were painted

Isn't it just? But I'd suggest the difference is that you read it and took it in, whereas some will just carry on spouting their preferred narrative purely because they like it better than the facts

Agree with you about the house prices too; it's all Monopoly money anyway if you're not planning to move, but how I wish some could see a bigger picture than "My house has tripled in value!!"

AnnieSnap · 13/12/2022 18:54

Give her a section 21 notice. She’s taking the piss!

WombatChocolate · 13/12/2022 18:58

The thing about the rock vs hard place thing landlords face, is that the hard options which relate to not making as much money as might be possible, aren’t comparable to the lack of security of tenure and losing your home faced by tenants.

The LL- tenant relationship is a legal one, but the way it works in this country is very much one of inequality. LLs are in the stronger position. Their property is their investment and they already have an owned home usually, elsewhere. When they sell, they are rarely homeless or having to move, often at a totally inconvenience time. This is what happens to the tenant.

The difficulty here is that tenancies are short. On one level, they need to because LLs do struggle to get rid of troublesome tenants who don’t pay or cause damage. It’s the big LL fear and there are enough troublesome tenants around unfortunately. However, the reality is that no or few tenants can ever get security. Many LLs will only give a 6 month let - it’s no good saying to tenants ‘well don’t take one of those’ when that’s mostly what’s available. 12 month tenancies normally have a 6 month break clause meaning they can become 6 month tenancies in reality. many tenants face being given notice at the 4 month point, so effectively just 16 weeks after moving in. In a rolling tenancy, which is what most become after an initial period (periodic) the LL can still give 2 months notice….it can happen at any point and without warning. There is no security.

LLs who happily rented themselves in their 20s while young free and single, can’t really imagine what it’s like to have kids and to have to move 7 times in 10 years, with none of the moves being by choice.

Why does it happen so often that people are given notice and moved on? A lot of it is because there are lots of so-called accidental LLs. It’s a market where many don’t I tend to stay or to provide secure homes for tenants or see it as a long term business. Lots are financially unstable and can’t weather maintenance costs and interest rate rises. When they say they couldn’t afford to sell so became a LL instead, it’s often a sign that they haven’t got much behind them to manage the difficult times that come with all markets. When they need the rent to fund their mortgage and can’t manage if mortgages rates rise or there’s a void or a big cost, they aren’t actually in a financial position to be running a business successfully…..and given this is people homes and lives, tenants need LLs who ARE secure and capable, not those with a high failure rate.

In some countries, tenancies are long term (3 years) and LLs are licensed and have to show they can support their business. They are professional and tend to own multiple buildings and know what they are doing. They make money and they also provide medium term security. It is possible to sell-up, but LLs plan ahead to liquify their assets oerhaos 4-5 years ahead. There’s none of this, ‘I’m having a baby in 6 months so need to have my tenants out, property sold and to have bought myself a new house in 6 months’.

For me though, the real problem evidenced by lots of people on this thread, is the attitude of ‘because I can’. It’s ignoring the fact that this isn’t an investment in widgets or an inanimate object, but something that is people’s home, even if it’s your house….a refusal to acknowledge that all people need somewhere to live, and that LL choices often make those lives really difficult and awful…often with little thought given to those consequences. It’s people who aren’t LLs also thinking that those who rent aren’t entitled to any security and that being a wealthy person with assets means you are more worthy and tenants should just be grateful someone has been willing to let them live in their property for multiple thousands per year…they should be grateful and accept intrusive viewings when it’s being sold out from under them, because by not being property owners they can have no expectations of anything better.

Monkeytrousers04 · 13/12/2022 19:14

Just to clarify, I make no money on my rental property. I never have. I couldn’t sell it due to a legal matter that took 2.5 years to resolve. The solicitors I used to buy it (as my first home) accepted liability and paid for all the costs but since then my rental income has just covered my mortgage payments & insurance and it’s an interest only mortgage. The asking price is currently £3k more than what I paid for it in 2008. It’s a nightmare. I do not want to evict my tenant at all. She’s a lovely person with a child, she looks after the house, and until three months ago has never been late with a payment.

Rock - carry on paying out £200 a month for a house I don’t live in.

Hard place - evict a hardworking single mum so that I can stop paying £200 a month for a house I don’t live in.

socialmedia23 · 13/12/2022 19:19

WombatChocolate · 13/12/2022 18:58

The thing about the rock vs hard place thing landlords face, is that the hard options which relate to not making as much money as might be possible, aren’t comparable to the lack of security of tenure and losing your home faced by tenants.

The LL- tenant relationship is a legal one, but the way it works in this country is very much one of inequality. LLs are in the stronger position. Their property is their investment and they already have an owned home usually, elsewhere. When they sell, they are rarely homeless or having to move, often at a totally inconvenience time. This is what happens to the tenant.

The difficulty here is that tenancies are short. On one level, they need to because LLs do struggle to get rid of troublesome tenants who don’t pay or cause damage. It’s the big LL fear and there are enough troublesome tenants around unfortunately. However, the reality is that no or few tenants can ever get security. Many LLs will only give a 6 month let - it’s no good saying to tenants ‘well don’t take one of those’ when that’s mostly what’s available. 12 month tenancies normally have a 6 month break clause meaning they can become 6 month tenancies in reality. many tenants face being given notice at the 4 month point, so effectively just 16 weeks after moving in. In a rolling tenancy, which is what most become after an initial period (periodic) the LL can still give 2 months notice….it can happen at any point and without warning. There is no security.

LLs who happily rented themselves in their 20s while young free and single, can’t really imagine what it’s like to have kids and to have to move 7 times in 10 years, with none of the moves being by choice.

Why does it happen so often that people are given notice and moved on? A lot of it is because there are lots of so-called accidental LLs. It’s a market where many don’t I tend to stay or to provide secure homes for tenants or see it as a long term business. Lots are financially unstable and can’t weather maintenance costs and interest rate rises. When they say they couldn’t afford to sell so became a LL instead, it’s often a sign that they haven’t got much behind them to manage the difficult times that come with all markets. When they need the rent to fund their mortgage and can’t manage if mortgages rates rise or there’s a void or a big cost, they aren’t actually in a financial position to be running a business successfully…..and given this is people homes and lives, tenants need LLs who ARE secure and capable, not those with a high failure rate.

In some countries, tenancies are long term (3 years) and LLs are licensed and have to show they can support their business. They are professional and tend to own multiple buildings and know what they are doing. They make money and they also provide medium term security. It is possible to sell-up, but LLs plan ahead to liquify their assets oerhaos 4-5 years ahead. There’s none of this, ‘I’m having a baby in 6 months so need to have my tenants out, property sold and to have bought myself a new house in 6 months’.

For me though, the real problem evidenced by lots of people on this thread, is the attitude of ‘because I can’. It’s ignoring the fact that this isn’t an investment in widgets or an inanimate object, but something that is people’s home, even if it’s your house….a refusal to acknowledge that all people need somewhere to live, and that LL choices often make those lives really difficult and awful…often with little thought given to those consequences. It’s people who aren’t LLs also thinking that those who rent aren’t entitled to any security and that being a wealthy person with assets means you are more worthy and tenants should just be grateful someone has been willing to let them live in their property for multiple thousands per year…they should be grateful and accept intrusive viewings when it’s being sold out from under them, because by not being property owners they can have no expectations of anything better.

the big elephant in the room is that many renters in this country are renting because they don't have access to affordable housing and are renting on the private market because they don't have a choice. They are not doing it for three years as a student or when relocating for a job. For those situations, flexibility is paramount. I have only rented in the UK for a year in my life when I was in my second year and I preferred halls. I only rented because I couldn't get a place in halls in my second year and was only happy to take on a fixed term contract cos i had an inkling i could get into halls in my third year.

I wish the government built housing for poorer and middle income people. Even if they were modest and not the British ideal, they would increase supply and ensure there is an alternative. Like if they offered government built 2 and 3 bed flats in London for £200k (with the caveat you can only sell it onto people with household incomes of below 90k for the next 25 years), that would be an alternative. They could probably build houses in places with more space but probably 2/3 bed maisonettes with little gardens would be more efficient use of space (top floor flat would not have a garden but maybe young people may not mind). They should aim for 50% off market price and additional subsidies for the poor. Not everyone would like it, and its fair enough if you prefer to rent a 3 bed Victorian terrace with spacious garden over owning this government property. But at least there is an alternative to renting. Ownership of a house with garden is not a human right, but decent secure shelter is. I think it should be sold to the people who can afford it as there would also need to be rental housing for the the people who cannot get a mortgage and the buyers would hopefully subsidize the renters.

Unfortunately I don't see an easy way to make renting more pleasant in this country. Like @WombatChocolate pointed out, most landlords are not professional. we could increase rental rights but lots of landlords would leave or switch to airnbn. Its not like in countries like Germany where corporations run most of the rental sector. It is difficult for your average person to have the resources to be a professional landlord. There are developments that are springing up which are built for rental and have lots of amenities but they seem to be geared at lifestyle renters rather than the majority of renters i.e. people who can afford to buy but choose to invest their money in other ways.

Bignanny30 · 13/12/2022 19:22

I worked for a rental agency for 15 years and Firstly even if her heating wasn’t working she has no right to withhold rent. And by the sound of it, you were more than reasonable, with regard to getting the repairs done ASAP anyway. Secondly if you rent it out through a management company then it will probably say in her contract that if you’ve given notice and are looking for a new tenant or a buyer to sell it then the tenant has to allow viewings, as long as you give them reasonable notice (usually about 24 hours). You sound like a very considerate landlord, as I was when I rented out my ex-family home, but I found that the more you give the more they expect. I don’t have a solution. I just wanted you to know that not everyone thinks that private landlords are scum!! Personally I’d be tempted to give her notice and then arrange to market it during the last month of her notice period. And try to accompany the viewings yourself or ask the estate agents to accompany viewings, because she sounds like the sort who will try to put prospective buyers off by saying things like :- well the neighbours are terribly noisy and There is lot of crime in the area etc. Good luck with it.

antelopevalley · 13/12/2022 19:37

@Bignanny30 Do you really work for a rental agency? Because legally no tenant has to allow viewings whatever their contract says.

Bignanny30 · 13/12/2022 19:39

Yes it was my job for 15 years I’m retired now and it was written into many rental contracts. Do you work for a management company ?

Nanof8 · 13/12/2022 19:44

HotChoxs · Today 14:59
I do curse them for selling. Not because they are actually selling but because they are not honourable enough to sell it onto another Landlord.

why would it be honourable to sell it to another landlord? If and when we sell our rental property, as long as I get my asking price why would it matter to me if the buyers are wanting it as a rental or want it as their family home?
Being a landlord in todays time is not great. Where I live rental laws are so far over to the tenants favour it's almost not worth the hassles. Unless you are lucky enough to get a great tenant. Which currently I have.

JustLyra · 13/12/2022 19:46

Bignanny30 · 13/12/2022 19:39

Yes it was my job for 15 years I’m retired now and it was written into many rental contracts. Do you work for a management company ?

I could write into tenancies that my tenants must make me dinner every Tuesday - doesn’t mean a court will enforce the clause.

it’s not remotely automatic that you’ll get it enforced at court. Especially not in the “we can do viewings at any time” way that many agents seem to think they can.

Alaimo · 13/12/2022 19:47

Bignanny30 · 13/12/2022 19:39

Yes it was my job for 15 years I’m retired now and it was written into many rental contracts. Do you work for a management company ?

I'm a landlord. If I write in a contract that my tenant needs to sacrifice a kitten every Thursday does that mean it's legally enforceable?

Squidlydoo · 13/12/2022 19:47

I haven’t read all the replies but ensure you have landlords insurance with legal cover included

Whammyyammy · 13/12/2022 19:51

She's taking the mick put of you and having a laugh. Section 21 her, see if she finds that funny

finnmum · 13/12/2022 19:51

@ Goodgrief82 still going on... I studied and worked in your country for a long time. You never visited mine. Because it is "too cold for you". I arrest my case.

vivainsomnia · 13/12/2022 20:03

Why do you think I don't have a one client business?
Let me think, probably because doing so doesn't involve a £300k + for one client.

Honestly, your argument trying to compare whatever business you run and being a landlord is pretty pathetic.

RunYouJuiceBitch · 13/12/2022 20:14

Nanof8 · 13/12/2022 19:44

HotChoxs · Today 14:59
I do curse them for selling. Not because they are actually selling but because they are not honourable enough to sell it onto another Landlord.

why would it be honourable to sell it to another landlord? If and when we sell our rental property, as long as I get my asking price why would it matter to me if the buyers are wanting it as a rental or want it as their family home?
Being a landlord in todays time is not great. Where I live rental laws are so far over to the tenants favour it's almost not worth the hassles. Unless you are lucky enough to get a great tenant. Which currently I have.

If and when we sell our rental property, as long as I get my asking price why would it matter to me if the buyers are wanting it as a rental or want it as their family home?

If there's someone living in your rental property at the same, you are making them homeless. That may or may not matter to you, of course - you might not care.

If the property is vacant at the time you decide to sell, then I agree it's irrelevant.

HotChoxs · 13/12/2022 20:15

Nanof8 · 13/12/2022 19:44

HotChoxs · Today 14:59
I do curse them for selling. Not because they are actually selling but because they are not honourable enough to sell it onto another Landlord.

why would it be honourable to sell it to another landlord? If and when we sell our rental property, as long as I get my asking price why would it matter to me if the buyers are wanting it as a rental or want it as their family home?
Being a landlord in todays time is not great. Where I live rental laws are so far over to the tenants favour it's almost not worth the hassles. Unless you are lucky enough to get a great tenant. Which currently I have.

If the property is tenanted then I don't see why the tenant should be booted out just so you can get a better sale price.

If not then it doesn't matter who you sell it to.

RunYouJuiceBitch · 13/12/2022 20:15

*at the time, not 'at the same'.

My typing is shocking this evening, but my proof reading worse still. Apologies...

Goodgrief82 · 13/12/2022 20:17

finnmum · 13/12/2022 19:51

@ Goodgrief82 still going on... I studied and worked in your country for a long time. You never visited mine. Because it is "too cold for you". I arrest my case.

Same could surely be said to you 😐

HotChoxs · 13/12/2022 20:21

vivainsomnia · 13/12/2022 20:03

Why do you think I don't have a one client business?
Let me think, probably because doing so doesn't involve a £300k + for one client.

Honestly, your argument trying to compare whatever business you run and being a landlord is pretty pathetic.

What does that even mean a 300k+ for one client?

You're right it's a ridiculous comparison. Your worst case when a tenant stops paying is you end up selling the property. If one of my customers stops paying I have to work out how to maintain enough cashflow to pay suppliers, not make staff redundant, and avoid bankruptcy.

My heart bleeds for you poor landlords.

Wimin123 · 13/12/2022 20:25

Familiar story - selling up. Couldn’t pay rent but on holiday in Finland for Christmas with the girlfriend he moved in after a week. Oh and her dog too. House was such a mess. Management agency useless - no communication. Worth paying the capital gains tax. Thankfully no mortgage to pay so just a few bills whilst it is on the market- poor neighbours had really suffered so glad to see the back of him too..

HotChoxs · 13/12/2022 20:31

Whammyyammy · 13/12/2022 19:51

She's taking the mick put of you and having a laugh. Section 21 her, see if she finds that funny

No she's not. She can't afford the rent. Maybe because she wants to heat the house and eat.

What the f is wrong with people.

HotChoxs · 13/12/2022 20:52

@vivainsomnia
Let me think, probably because doing so doesn't involve a £300k + for one client.

Oh I get it now a 300k+ property for every client means you can only have one client does it?

wow, have you really not worked out, as a landlord that you don't actually put down 300k+ and then let it out.

you put down a fraction of that as a deposit, let it out,, the tenant pays the mortgage. the house price goes up over a period of time, voila, equity.

you remortgage and use that equity to buy another property to rent out and continue doing so. it's a pretty basic business model which is dependent on long term growth of properties. it's a highly leveraged business model that works better on economies of scale because then your cost to employ trades, renovations goes down and your cashflow increases to cover void periods and problem tenants.

as with all businesses the ones who are better at it will be able to find the right properties and come up with the optimal balancing act between yield, cashflow, voids etc..

what it isn't is a guarantee that you can just let out a property and that will be your pension sorted.

Swipe left for the next trending thread