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Tiny violins out - private landlord having trouble

573 replies

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 12:54

I own a flat that I rent out because it no longer suits my needs to live there and I couldn't find a buyer without making a substantial loss during Covid (due to no private outdoor space).

I try to not be a dick - e.g. I charge under market rate, I don't increase the rent unless in between tenants, I get everything fixed as soon as I can (via management agency), I allow pets/children etc. All things that should be standard but too often are not.

Anyway, I have a tenant who is playing games. Every month for the last three she has had a problem paying the rent. First of all she wanted to move the payment date (fine, circs change, but she was a week after the agreed date), then she was late again, then she decided unilaterally she didn't have to pay because the boiler had broken and I couldn't get a new one installed over night. I reimbursed her for heaters to keep warm and had it replaced as soon as a reputable tradesman could install one - about a week in total. I get this isn't ideal and I offered a £100 discount as a goodwill gesture. She eventually paid.

I hate being a landlord and I am v shortly going on maternity leave with my second child so I need to sell especially as the income is now unreliable to use the equity to buy us a family home.

But I'm scared to put it on the market in case she takes that as free reign to stop paying altogether.

Does anyone have any advice that doesn't include "private landlords" and "scum of the earth" in the same sentence? I wouldn't expect her to let people traipse through her home at short notice and would hope to arrange maybe two open house mornings in Jan to minimise inconvenience - but I also expect her to stick to her side of the contract and pay the agreed rent during this time.

OP posts:
DemelzaRobins · 12/12/2022 17:14

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 13:46

Good advice - thanks everyone.

Looks like S21 is the best route.

I need to check with the agency re insurance - I switched agencies not long ago and can't believe I would have signed up without it.

I redecorated summer 2020, just before she moved in, so I doubt it needs too much sprucing up.

No chance of capital gains. Chance would be a fine thing.

I find it really off that tenants just refuse viewings. Surely in life you give and take. I wouldn't try to hoist last minute regular PITA viewings - but why can't tenants be reasonable and say "ok, I'll be out on these two days next month, arrange some then"? Why must everything be such a battle?

Unfortunately not all estate agents and landlords are respectful of tenants property. We were tenants in a house our landlady was selling. The estate agents came to photograph the house as planned and threw our possessions around. We had ensured the house was tidy but they threw all our toiletries in the bath (toothbrushes, hand soap, shampoo etc.) swept books and ornaments on shelves onto the floor. They also threw things like our lamps and alarm clocks on to the floor so they wouldn't be on our bedside tables in the pictures. They just left it all on the floor. Some of the toiletry bottles broke when they were dumped in the bath so we had to clean up too.

We were furious and complained. We were assured they would be respectful next time so we allowed the first couple of viewings as planned but had issues - the most serious of which was that the estate agents didn't bother locking the doors when they left, anyone could have walked in. We refused further viewings after that - we were leaving soon, they could wait until we were gone.

finnmum · 12/12/2022 17:17

OP, you sound like a reasonable LL. However like mentioned here earlier the tenant's life circumstances are often totally forgotten when private LLs want to sell their home for financial reasons only. My family experienced this for 15+ years when renting in London. Never able to buy for various reasons we paid very high rents and never missed a payment date. Almost every time we had to move very quickly because the private LL sold the place. Our children had to change schools, the whole life as a family was turned into a chaos because every few years we were out. Mind you we totally understood the LLs' rights but frankly never saw them behaving with any empathy. After evicted out of the blue and realising our kids are going to be homeless within weeks (we had family pets as well so finding a home was always a nightmare even with our great references as tenants) we still let people in for viewings which certainly mentally added to injury. Never mind cleaning and decluttering for LL's gain and our loss it was the emotional intrusion seeing people walking around in our childrens' bedrooms (and ours!) around our personal belongings. Having a very old, deaf family dog sometimes alone in the house when strangers came in. I guess I never thought we could say no. For my kids sake I wish I had.

Notaninterestingfact · 12/12/2022 17:17

DemelzaRobins · 12/12/2022 17:14

Unfortunately not all estate agents and landlords are respectful of tenants property. We were tenants in a house our landlady was selling. The estate agents came to photograph the house as planned and threw our possessions around. We had ensured the house was tidy but they threw all our toiletries in the bath (toothbrushes, hand soap, shampoo etc.) swept books and ornaments on shelves onto the floor. They also threw things like our lamps and alarm clocks on to the floor so they wouldn't be on our bedside tables in the pictures. They just left it all on the floor. Some of the toiletry bottles broke when they were dumped in the bath so we had to clean up too.

We were furious and complained. We were assured they would be respectful next time so we allowed the first couple of viewings as planned but had issues - the most serious of which was that the estate agents didn't bother locking the doors when they left, anyone could have walked in. We refused further viewings after that - we were leaving soon, they could wait until we were gone.

You've given me inspiration!

I would make sure that I was, in all my 16 stone, full bush, naked glory, in the bath-tub for when the viewers arrived.

And now we have the bathroom.................. OH JESUS CHRIST ALMIGHTY! Back out. Let's just go to the kitchen shall we?

Goldpaw · 12/12/2022 17:18

I once went to view a house with my then husband that had sitting tenants.

It was two blokes and they'd obviously just shagged before we rolled up because the house stank of sex and sperm and they were smirking all the way through the viewing!

Coatdegroan · 12/12/2022 17:20

Agree with those saying give her the required notice then sell.

Air b and b is a way of making money more reliably and short term and would allow you to block out days for viewings. Would also mean that it would be minimally furnished without lots of tenants clutter. You could earn the same amount per minth by just letting for part of the time. Does involve input to do changeovers etc. Just a suggestion.

im a previous landlord of a 1 bed flat who has been owed up to a grand by at least 2 tenants despite being a fair and kind landlord. Done a lot of renting previously and behaved how I would liked to have been treated, only to be ripped off. It is very hard to get the money back. Agree on the tiny violins as we are lucky to be in this position, but actually it can still have a lot of issues and stresses.

Notaninterestingfact · 12/12/2022 17:23

This poster has received approx (conservative estimate) 27k from this tenant.

This poster is not an accidental landlord. She has been one through multiple tenancies.

I don't buy it honey.

Notaninterestingfact · 12/12/2022 17:24

Goldpaw · 12/12/2022 17:18

I once went to view a house with my then husband that had sitting tenants.

It was two blokes and they'd obviously just shagged before we rolled up because the house stank of sex and sperm and they were smirking all the way through the viewing!

😆 Love it!

I'd bring out the dog and say that it shits everywhere and we've tried for years to find out where it shit last but we just get the smell.

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 17:29

@Notaninterestingfact I don't care "honey". I didn't set out to buy a BTL. I rent the property out at below market rate because it is too small now I have a child and I moved jobs so didn't need to be within xx distance by car of a particular location. The flat wouldn't have sold without making a loss, so I've let it out. That no longer works for me, so I asked advice about how best to proceed. Most people have been very helpful.

OP posts:
WombatChocolate · 12/12/2022 17:30

There are 2 separate issues here.

One is about the OP wanting to sell her property. As a LL she can legally serve a S21 at the appropriate time and hope the tenant moves out, usually 2 months as a minimum later. Without doubt, this is a difficult situation for any tenant. As has been said, a new deposit will need to be found for a new property, possible period of needing to pay 2 lots of rent if there is some overlap, stress and inconvenience of moving and possibly uprooting children from schools etc. Its legal but difficult for tenants and most tenants struggle to out their hands on the extra couple of £k needed to fund it. It’s disingenuous to suggest a tenant should be financially prepared for such an eventuality and are failing in their responsibilities if they haven’t got that cash to hand. By very nature, we know renters often are not as financially well off as LLs and don’t have large savings or spare cash. Expecting them to be able to weather that financial storm, which is foisted on them using a timescale totally out if their control, is not at all equivalent to expecting a LL to be able to weather the financial storms of changing interest rates, property prices etc. A LL has CHOICE about if and when to sell, looking for other mortgage rates etc. It is their poor planning if they mortgage themselves up to the hilt and can’t cope with an increase in interest rates or maintenance bills. Given their financial choices impact someone else’s life too and they are the supplier of an essential service, it is essential they are in a strong enough financial position to meet their obligations.

The issue of the tenant not having paid their rent is a separate issue. The OP is clearly wanting to sell regardless if this as she wants to free up the cash from the property for her growing family. So actually, even if the tenant had been the perfect tenant, OP would probably still be looking to arrive notice in the New Year. That is entirely legal if done correctly. However, OP has suggested multiple times that it’s because Tenant has been a bad tenant and poor payer. Actually, it’s not really about that, although perhaps OP is using the couple of incidents of delayed payment (which have later morphed into suggestions that this tenant has never paid their rent or is a serial non-payer, when OP did not given any evidence of that across their 18 month tenancy) to help justify issuing an S21 to herself. Most LLs don’t like to evict good tenants. Most acknowledge it creates difficulties and stress and a natural end to a tenancy is the ideal. Most do it reluctantly and try to time it a bit, but when they don’t, sometimes justifying it in their own mind as ‘deserved’ which is what OP did (references to tenant as ‘Dick’ and even as ‘wanker’ albeit crossed out) certainly suggest she thinks they deserve it. That’s pretty unpleasant, even if later claimed as tongue in cheek.

The thing is, yes it’s a business and yes it’s right that LLs can get their property back through legal methods and that if there are genuine issues of non-payment, damage, etc, that there is a robust system to evict tenants (and probably that system isn’t robust enough) but tenants should be treated like people and given the respect that clients….which is what they are, deserve. Calling them ‘Dicks’ or ‘Wankers’ shows an attitude towards tenants. Others in this thread have showed a similar attitude towards tenants as some kind of lesser-being who just need to be ‘got rid of’ with zero interest in considering the situation behind delayed payment of rent, or what will happen next. For some people on this thread, the LL is the property owner and even though by signing an AST the tenant gains some legal rights, to some, those rights are an annoyance and not really deserved, but fair game to try and subvert, because really tenants as non-owners shouldn’t actually have any rights.

Thats why multiple times, people have suggested tenants OUGHT to allow viewings. Even those who understand there absolutely is no legal requirement and deposits cannot be withheld over this regardless of what ASTs might say, many believe that a tenant is unreasonable or difficult or obstructive not to allow it….that the owner has a right to push for viewings to happen and should be able to expect Co-operation. And this is after multiple people have described how instructive, upsetting and just how often these might happen. Still, people don’t think that having paid many many thousands in rent, entitles tenants to the quiet enjoyment of the property the tenant has paid for. Still people think that the owner’s desire to start seeking must surely trump the legal right and the actual desire if the tenant to not have this happen.

I’m a LL and I don’t like the narrative of all or most LLs are scum that can emerge. However, I also don’t like the other one that appears too, about tenants being feckless,nor somehow lesser beings. In the end, tenants don’t have security of tenure. Given the competing interests of LLs and their need to be able to sell within certain timeframes, it’s probably the case that tenants will never have the security of tenure they’d like. As homeowners, people often don’t realise just how important that is and how devastating having to regularly move can be. As homeowners, people should appreciate the security they have that tenants usually simply don’t have. Some kind of acknowledgement of that, rather than suggestions that tenants are lesser beings for not having managed to get a deposit together to buy, would be better than suggestions that tenants should be grateful to be provided with an place to live at an expensive rate and should be bending over backwards to let LLs visit any time that they fancy it, or to market the property extensively so they can sell it from under their very feet.

The lack of empathy staggers me.

Notaninterestingfact · 12/12/2022 17:32

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 17:29

@Notaninterestingfact I don't care "honey". I didn't set out to buy a BTL. I rent the property out at below market rate because it is too small now I have a child and I moved jobs so didn't need to be within xx distance by car of a particular location. The flat wouldn't have sold without making a loss, so I've let it out. That no longer works for me, so I asked advice about how best to proceed. Most people have been very helpful.

So it's not big enough for you with a child, but it's big enough for your tenant with a child?

The flat wouldn't have sold without making a loss. A loss suggests that you bought it? It wasn't some inherited burden?

Stop it.

Nobody is buying it.

Notaninterestingfact · 12/12/2022 17:32

How much rent have you received from this tenant in the past 18 months?

Notaninterestingfact · 12/12/2022 17:36

You're saying that you're an accidental landlord. You're not. You're also one who didn't care that your tenants didn't have heating or hot water for ten days (I've seen your comment on another thread before you try to change that story).
Why do you feel that you deserve a new home for your now 2 babies but that your tenant who has paid you at the very least £27,000 in income over the past 18 months doesn't deserve to even have the security of a roof over her head?

I'd love to have that level of ignorance.

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 17:38

@Notaninterestingfact no, not inherited. Bought.

It's not about who deserves what. I'm buying a house for my babies because I can. I just wanted advice on how best to proceed. You're weirdly invested here.

OP posts:
Notaninterestingfact · 12/12/2022 17:38

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 17:38

@Notaninterestingfact no, not inherited. Bought.

It's not about who deserves what. I'm buying a house for my babies because I can. I just wanted advice on how best to proceed. You're weirdly invested here.

Ok, so bought.

It's just that you said that you didn't buy it in your OP. That you accidentally ended up with it....

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 17:40

@Notaninterestingfact I had no idea they didn't have hot water. It wasn't mentioned once. As soon as I knew the boiler was playing up I instructed the agent to get out a plumber and then bought a brand new boiler. It's not my fault it couldn't be fitted the next day or that the agent took a few days to respond. I chased them. I also paid for heaters for the tenant. JFC I don't know why I'm bothering to argue. I have advice I needed - S21 in new year.

OP posts:
roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 17:41

@Notaninterestingfact No, I said I didn't buy it with the intention of letting it out. I bought it to live in and did until it was no longer suitable.

OP posts:
Notaninterestingfact · 12/12/2022 17:41

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 17:40

@Notaninterestingfact I had no idea they didn't have hot water. It wasn't mentioned once. As soon as I knew the boiler was playing up I instructed the agent to get out a plumber and then bought a brand new boiler. It's not my fault it couldn't be fitted the next day or that the agent took a few days to respond. I chased them. I also paid for heaters for the tenant. JFC I don't know why I'm bothering to argue. I have advice I needed - S21 in new year.

Because your conscience is pricking you?

I don't know.

In any case, you've decided what to do with your investment property. You can stop the charade now.

Notaninterestingfact · 12/12/2022 17:43

10 days with no heating and no hot water.

10 days.

But you didn't know? Except you say that you did know! You knew on day 1. It's right there in your posts.

Maggie178 · 12/12/2022 17:45

I too was an accidental landlord. Charged below market value. I decided to sell with tenants in situ as they said they wanted to stay. It took longer to sell. I got less than if vacant. Once it was sold the tenants messaged me complaining that the new landlord was putting their rent up and they'd be moving. It will be easier to sell vacant.

finnmum · 12/12/2022 17:46

Thank you WombatChocolate. Wise words.

roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 17:46

@Notaninterestingfact I knew there was no heating so I paid for heaters. Nothing was said about hot water - the immersion heating was working. I'm also not a plumber nor a mind reader and can only go by what the agents tell me.

OP posts:
roarfeckingroarr · 12/12/2022 17:48

@Maggie178 mmm that seems to be the general advice. I had hoped to sell quickly after the tenant left after serving notice - but seems I need to serve notice before trying to sell. If it doesn't sell, at the very least I'll rework and plan and maybe get in a more reliable tenant paying market value,

OP posts:
Catwoman300 · 12/12/2022 17:50

I was broke. Rented my house out. Conned into renting it to a 'single parent ' but dodgy boyfriend moved in shortly after she moved in. Viewed the property with her mother and said she was single.

After first 6 months she complained about a broken window, the windows were about 4 years old. I asked for a picture of the issue it never materialised and was 'fixed'
Then it was a request for a replacement carpet. The carpet was 3 years old. I lived in the house on my own and it was in my spare bedroom so hardly used. When I saw the picture it was a massive metre long stain. So I refused and said this was not normal wear and tear. (My management agency were useless.)

Then the delayed payments started. On Facebook she was on holiday in Spain and had a full collection of Christmas presents under her tree. Eventually I served notice. Never saw another penny and when I got my house back it was disgusting. Vomit and everything. So my advice is to get rid of them sort your house out, otherwise she could put off potential buyers.

People assume all landlords are wealthy I certainly wasn't and these people made my life very stressful and added to my financial woes.
I will never rent out again and have a lot of sympathy for landlords some may be unscrupulous but given the amount of horror stories I've read about tenants and my own experience there could well be good reason for it.

WombatChocolate · 12/12/2022 17:54

As OP says, she’s buying a house with the proceeds from her rental ‘because she can’.

Thats the reality here. LLs are property owners who have choices because they have enough wealth to make those choices. They make choices which benefit themselves and act with self interest.

The bottom line and also the reality is that tenants have less choices. They are subject to what can be the whims of LLs who decide they want to sell, or to end the tenancy. Their AST gives them some rights, but full security of tenure is never one of them.

And some people take the attitude that because they can do something, they will only consider themselves and not give any thought to anyone else, particularly not to someone else, who they might decide is somehow less entitled to those choices, due to lack of finances.

I just think people needed to be treated with respect. They need to be given absolutely every element of their legal entitlement without any pressing them to give-up any element of it, for the convenience if the Ll, as an absolute minimum. Good LLs don’t congratulate themselves on providing that minimum and call themselves ‘good and kind’ for simply doing what they’ve been paid to. Good LLs run a successful business and make money often because they go beyond that minimum. They treat tenants with dignity and respect. They know the legal requirements inside out, and they’ve planned so that when maintenance is needed, they can access it quickly and fund it, and if a tenant stops paying, it doesn’t wreck their business and mean they need to sell other properties and uproot tenants. When it comes to possibly wanting to sell, they plan well ahead. They wait for tenants to naturally move out, or they engage them in conversation about it and possible timescales and are willing to make some accommodations and adjustments to make it easier for the tenant. That doesn’t mean sales never happen, but brutal 2 month notice in a crazy rising market, often delivered by email and with no conversation or discussion simply isn’t the norm. None of us would like to be told 2 weeks before Christmas that notice was being issued today and 6 weeks after Christmas we would need to be out. None of us would like to just get an email out of the blue telling us that. Instead, we’d much rather it didn’t happen, but if it had to, someone spoke to us and talked through some difficulty possibilities about timescale, and we felt we’d been considered. We’d like as much notice as possible. We’d like some element of flexibility if possible when we found somewhere else. Quite simply we’d like to feel like we were a person and that the difficulty of having to move (especially with kids and schools involved) was acknowledged and we weren’t purely seen as a source of thousands of £ who had now served their purpose and didn’t even deserve a conversation.

Sadly, lots of LLs don’t think it through and realise they can run a successful business AND treat people with respect too. And lots of comments on this thread suggest zero respect for renters.

Eckelbloodyfecken · 12/12/2022 18:01

Moraxella · 12/12/2022 13:08

evict her and sell it empty.

This is what I would do