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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To have sacked cleaner so close to Christmas ?

122 replies

rubbishcleaner · 10/12/2022 11:11

I’ve had a cleaner for approx 9 months and literally only the first 2 visits were ok.

Every single other time she’s been 5/10 mins late (sometimes 15 mins) and leaves between 15-30 mins early.

The first visits the cleaning was to an ok standard but then things started going downhill . No dusting done at all so I asked could the dusting and hoovering be the priority . Then for a few visits she spent 80% of the time upstairs continuously hoovering so I went up one day and the hoover was just on - she wasn’t actually hoovering! I asked could we please have a chat and I’d let her know my expectations and she could let me know what was and wasn’t working for her as I wanted to give her another chance. We drew up a list of what was achievable in the 3 hours and I mentioned again about it being a full 3 hours as on average she had been doing 2hr 15 min or 2hr 30 min when I booked 3 hours .

Nothing changed and I had to ask again for her to stay for the whole time and if she couldn’t find something to do to just please ask and I could let her know what needed doing.

Then she started cancelling on the morning she was due to come saying she had an appointment (so not like an unexpected illness something she could have told me about the week before ?)

I booked in an extra 2 days for the week before Xmas and she agreed . Now she’s cancelled and I’ve had to say that’s it. Apparently I’m out of order for sacking someone so close to Christmas when I had booked extra hours and she says she had factored that in and needed the extra money for Xmas but I’ve tried to be reasonable and I’m getting nowhere at all.

OP posts:
WillMellorsHips · 10/12/2022 12:39

You have done the right thing. Cease any communication with her if that is what she is doing.

oakleaffy · 10/12/2022 12:40

I think the idle swindling 'Cleaner' is on here...the 1% who thought OP was AIBU 🧹😆

FatEaredFuck · 10/12/2022 12:41

She actually sounds like a really nasty person, you are well rid. It's gone beyond cheeky into taking advantage of you - and now she's close to hectoring you for cash.

Block, delete and move on. If you have a key I would change the locks. I do not trust this woman!!!

Tessabelle74 · 10/12/2022 12:43

I'm a cleaner and I NEVER do less than the full hours I'm booked for, if I finish earlier than expected I ask if there's anything else I can do and generally my clients will say no and I go but it's only ever 10-15 minutes. You've been more than reasonable, I'd have got rid of her once I caught her just leaving the hoover running. YANBU

Quveas · 10/12/2022 12:46

DenbyChina · 10/12/2022 11:55

An employer pays holiday pay so either she’s self employed or employed by an agency. I’m astounded that you think everyone who has a cleaner owes them holiday pay.

Show quote history

I'm astounded that you don't know the law better.

Cleaners are entitled to holiday pay just like you are. And it is very unlikely that a cleaner would pass the test for self-employment. Just because someone says they aren't an employer doesn't mean they aren't - the OP has paid sick pay so whether she likes it or not she has established an employment relationship. Even if she hadn't paid sick pay, it would probably fail the control test for self-employment.

And if there was an agency involved then the OP wouldn't be talking about SACKING the cleaner!

People walk blindly into being an employer without giving it a thought because they naively think that the law doesn't affect them. You are a good example of that being the case, if you think that the law doesn't apply here.

Quveas · 10/12/2022 12:50

growinggreyer · 10/12/2022 11:56

Employment does not work like this, and you are acting unlawfully. You owe her a full weeks wages. That's the law. Now she might not do anything about it, but if she does, you will lose.
Can we see some case law for this, please? I would think the cleaner is self-employed and is working on a casual basis. If she doesn't turn up you don't pay her. It's like the window cleaner or the gardener. No service - no payment.

The law of the land applies. Quite apart from the fact that the OP HAS already paid her when she hasn't turned up, employers cannot simply "decide" that someone is self-employed. What you think isn't the test, and purely based on what the OP has said here, her relationship with the cleaner would pass the test for employment applied both in law and by HMRC. It doesn't need case law - just the law.

zingally · 10/12/2022 12:51

You should have sacked her months ago. But tbh, I'm hopeless at confrontation as well, so wouldn't have been much better!

Puzzledandpissedoff · 10/12/2022 12:54

I think the idle swindling 'Cleaner' is on here...the 1% who thought OP was AIBU

1% of 57 replies is only just over half a person - but then if they've only got half a mind that could be about right Wink

CharityShopChic · 10/12/2022 13:00

YANBU sacking her as she is a skiver.

YABU for not having sacked her months ago.

Nanny0gg · 10/12/2022 13:04

And it is very unlikely that a cleaner would pass the test for self-employment.

Why?

woodhill · 10/12/2022 13:05

She hasn't got a leg to stand on

Cf

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 10/12/2022 13:06

I think the idle swindling 'Cleaner' is on here...the 1% who thought OP was AIBU

True - this is meant to be a standard agreed exchange of labour for money; OP hasn't adopted her!

DenbyChina · 10/12/2022 13:06

Quveas · 10/12/2022 12:46

I'm astounded that you don't know the law better.

Cleaners are entitled to holiday pay just like you are. And it is very unlikely that a cleaner would pass the test for self-employment. Just because someone says they aren't an employer doesn't mean they aren't - the OP has paid sick pay so whether she likes it or not she has established an employment relationship. Even if she hadn't paid sick pay, it would probably fail the control test for self-employment.

And if there was an agency involved then the OP wouldn't be talking about SACKING the cleaner!

People walk blindly into being an employer without giving it a thought because they naively think that the law doesn't affect them. You are a good example of that being the case, if you think that the law doesn't apply here.

Show quote history

Please state the law/s in which you hiring the services of a worker for a period of time like a cleaner or hairdresser means that you become their employer and therefore have to pay sick and holiday pay. You’ve wilfully misinterpreted what it means to be an employer.

If you hire someone for a service, you are not then their employer. Have you ever used someone like a hairdresser or cleaner? Cleaners are usually either (1) employed by agencies who take on those financial responsibilities or (2) self employed.

DenbyChina · 10/12/2022 13:11

Anyone else think that quveas is the cleaner 😂

Lou670 · 10/12/2022 13:11

I am a cleaner and I am self employed and pay for my own insurances and pay for my dbs certificate, which I show to customers. Is she employed through an agency or is she self employed? I don't think you owe her anything. Leaving the hoover idling (whilst usually scrolling through a phone) is one of the oldest tricks out there! I would have sacked her immediately for this alone.

A cleaner should be prompt at all times and never finishing early. There is always something that needs doing if all other things have been covered. I wouldn't worry too much about it and try and find another cleaner. Always ask to see references first.

CharityShopChic · 10/12/2022 13:12

A cleaner who does 3 hours a week for the OP (or not, as the case may be), and presumably 3 hours a week for lots of other people as well, is the epitome of self-employed!

She doesn't get holiday pay. She doesn't get employment rights because she is not employed - she is a self-employed sole trader, providing a service. No service, no pay.

tigger1001 · 10/12/2022 13:13

"and purely based on what the OP has said here, her relationship with the cleaner would pass the test for employment applied both in law and by HMRC. It doesn't need case law - just the law."

On what the op has said here it is incredibly likely that the cleaner is self employed.

Domestic cleaners generally are self employed.

gettingolderbutcooler · 10/12/2022 13:14

DenbyChina · 10/12/2022 13:11

Anyone else think that quveas is the cleaner 😂

Grin
SnowyPheasants · 10/12/2022 13:15

I am sure there's a data base of explosive fantasy cleaner posts, possibly compiled by the daily rags bored journo's, just waiting to land like well timed parachute droppings onto the forum each season, lol.

Or else, people's lives are really this dreary.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 10/12/2022 13:16

Cleaners are entitled to holiday pay just like you are. And it is very unlikely that a cleaner would pass the test for self-employment. Just because someone says they aren't an employer doesn't mean they aren't - the OP has paid sick pay so whether she likes it or not she has established an employment relationship. Even if she hadn't paid sick pay, it would probably fail the control test for self-employment.

And if there was an agency involved then the OP wouldn't be talking about SACKING the cleaner!

No, SE people are not entitled to holiday or sick pay. Part of the deal of being SE is that you have more freedom but also take on more responsibility yourself. That's why SE people charge higher hourly rates - to take account of the extra costs that are already covered for employed people.

OP hasn't actively paid sick pay - the CF cleaner has just guilted her into paying 'expected' earnings, not that different from expecting to be regularly paid for three hours' work but only doing 2 hours, and that half-arsedly.

How many people do you know who only work 2 or 3 hours? It's mainly people who work full time for one single (usually corporate) client, hoping to avoid their proper responsibilities as an employer, who are ruled to be effectively employed - not somebody who does 2 or 3 hours here and there for several clients.

Also, people are just using the word 'sack' as shorthand for 'end the ongoing business relationship' - nobody is actually using it to mean 'terminate a contract of employment'.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 10/12/2022 13:18

I am sure there's a data base of explosive fantasy cleaner posts, possibly compiled by the daily rags bored journo's, just waiting to land like well timed parachute droppings onto the forum each season, lol.

Or else, people's lives are really this dreary.

Yet here we both are, reading and commenting on the thread - so our lives must be just as dreary as well Grin

BCxx · 10/12/2022 13:38

Sorry had to laugh at the fact she had the Hoover on just for the sound effect 😂😭 I’m having the exact same problem. She leaves whenever she fancies. One day I had said I was going out but would be back before she was leaving. I came home 20 minutes before she was leaving and she was pulling out of my driveway, having just left my house unlocked 🤦🏼‍♀️ That would be fair enough if she’d waited and I hadn’t came back but it wasn’t even the end of the time I’d paid her for! I think she books someone else straight after each person so she’s getting paid to drive between peoples houses! I’m waiting until the Christmas break then messaging her. I do feel bad doing it at that time of year but if she actually cared she would work for the time I’m paying for

SchoolQuestionnaire · 10/12/2022 13:41

FuckoffeeBeforeCoffee · 10/12/2022 11:16

Fuck that. She's taking the piss.

Ignore her. You owe her nothing. You certainly do not owe her for extra she hasn't bloody done!

This.

SinnerBoy · 10/12/2022 13:53

She's been taking your money and not doing what you were paying her to do. She did 2/3 of the expected hours each time. She's a lazy freeloader and deserves everything she got.

AudTheDeepMinded · 10/12/2022 13:54

Get rid. Similar here and then she cancelled as sick one week and the next week the day before due informed me she had a commercial contract and so was dropping me! cheeky cow.