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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To have sacked cleaner so close to Christmas ?

122 replies

rubbishcleaner · 10/12/2022 11:11

I’ve had a cleaner for approx 9 months and literally only the first 2 visits were ok.

Every single other time she’s been 5/10 mins late (sometimes 15 mins) and leaves between 15-30 mins early.

The first visits the cleaning was to an ok standard but then things started going downhill . No dusting done at all so I asked could the dusting and hoovering be the priority . Then for a few visits she spent 80% of the time upstairs continuously hoovering so I went up one day and the hoover was just on - she wasn’t actually hoovering! I asked could we please have a chat and I’d let her know my expectations and she could let me know what was and wasn’t working for her as I wanted to give her another chance. We drew up a list of what was achievable in the 3 hours and I mentioned again about it being a full 3 hours as on average she had been doing 2hr 15 min or 2hr 30 min when I booked 3 hours .

Nothing changed and I had to ask again for her to stay for the whole time and if she couldn’t find something to do to just please ask and I could let her know what needed doing.

Then she started cancelling on the morning she was due to come saying she had an appointment (so not like an unexpected illness something she could have told me about the week before ?)

I booked in an extra 2 days for the week before Xmas and she agreed . Now she’s cancelled and I’ve had to say that’s it. Apparently I’m out of order for sacking someone so close to Christmas when I had booked extra hours and she says she had factored that in and needed the extra money for Xmas but I’ve tried to be reasonable and I’m getting nowhere at all.

OP posts:
onepieceoflollipop · 10/12/2022 11:49

That’s a good scam she has there.
offering to book lots of extra hours then cancelling but demanding payment.
taking advantage of when you have offered sick pay previously!

Quveas · 10/12/2022 11:51

rubbishcleaner · 10/12/2022 11:37

Thankyou everyone ! I feel better now and not so guilty (I’m such a doormat and hate confrontation)
ive messaged that I had paid on numerous occasions for 3 full hours and she hadn’t worked 3 hours so that offsets what she thinks she’s owed

I'm surprised you let this continue for 9 months when you should have stopped it in its tracks months ago. BUT I am going to disagree with you and everyone else on one thing. Employment does not work like this, and you are acting unlawfully. You owe her a full weeks wages. That's the law. Now she might not do anything about it, but if she does, you will lose. The notice period, in the absence of anything to the contrrary, is one week and you are legally obliged to pay it. Plus any holiday pay which may be due. Your failure to manage her and to deal with issues does not "offset" what your legal obligations are.

Like I said, you may get away with this, but you also may not, and for the sake of acting lawfully and being able to show you have, I think you should ensure that any notice period and holiday pay is paid.

onepieceoflollipop · 10/12/2022 11:53

In contrast my cleaner has just ended her agreement with us (as amicably as she could)

she used to work 3 full hours and worked very hard for all of it wouldn’t even accept a quick tea break. Her other commitments changed and she couldn’t do the full 3 hours but as she was so good we told her in writing we would pay for 3 and she would do 2. She never took advantage and we loved her work ethic.
but now things have changed again and she could do the full 2 hours so we mutually agreed she will end her time with us.

however we had cheeky cleaners before who short changed us so I’ve had my faith restored a bit there are some excellent cleaners around.

skyeisthelimit · 10/12/2022 11:54

YANBU, she has brought it on herself. Just block her now.

I assume she was self employed, did you have a signed contract with her? Even if you did, she breached it anyway by not working the agreed hours.

DenbyChina · 10/12/2022 11:55

Quveas · 10/12/2022 11:51

I'm surprised you let this continue for 9 months when you should have stopped it in its tracks months ago. BUT I am going to disagree with you and everyone else on one thing. Employment does not work like this, and you are acting unlawfully. You owe her a full weeks wages. That's the law. Now she might not do anything about it, but if she does, you will lose. The notice period, in the absence of anything to the contrrary, is one week and you are legally obliged to pay it. Plus any holiday pay which may be due. Your failure to manage her and to deal with issues does not "offset" what your legal obligations are.

Like I said, you may get away with this, but you also may not, and for the sake of acting lawfully and being able to show you have, I think you should ensure that any notice period and holiday pay is paid.

Show quote history

An employer pays holiday pay so either she’s self employed or employed by an agency. I’m astounded that you think everyone who has a cleaner owes them holiday pay.

GonnaGetGoingReturns · 10/12/2022 11:56

She’s not doing the work and she’s trying to fool you into thinking she’s hoovering when she’s not.

I would have done as PPs say and fired her months ago.

growinggreyer · 10/12/2022 11:56

Employment does not work like this, and you are acting unlawfully. You owe her a full weeks wages. That's the law. Now she might not do anything about it, but if she does, you will lose.
Can we see some case law for this, please? I would think the cleaner is self-employed and is working on a casual basis. If she doesn't turn up you don't pay her. It's like the window cleaner or the gardener. No service - no payment.

Yesthatismychildsigh · 10/12/2022 12:01

I’m tempted to say you’re UNreasonable, to have let this go on so long.

FetchezLaVache · 10/12/2022 12:02

rubbishcleaner · 10/12/2022 11:16

I’d booked an extra 6 hours per Xmas - I’m tempted to say all the times I’ve paid her for 3 hours and she’s done approx 2.5 so had more than she should have actually more than covers the 6 hours lost money ?

I would do exactly this!

Yesthatismychildsigh · 10/12/2022 12:02

Quveas · 10/12/2022 11:51

I'm surprised you let this continue for 9 months when you should have stopped it in its tracks months ago. BUT I am going to disagree with you and everyone else on one thing. Employment does not work like this, and you are acting unlawfully. You owe her a full weeks wages. That's the law. Now she might not do anything about it, but if she does, you will lose. The notice period, in the absence of anything to the contrrary, is one week and you are legally obliged to pay it. Plus any holiday pay which may be due. Your failure to manage her and to deal with issues does not "offset" what your legal obligations are.

Like I said, you may get away with this, but you also may not, and for the sake of acting lawfully and being able to show you have, I think you should ensure that any notice period and holiday pay is paid.

Show quote history

Why do people post incorrect crap like this?

Wiluli · 10/12/2022 12:04

No you should have sacked her ages ago . She clearly does not need teh job or she would be a actually doing it

GonnaGetGoingReturns · 10/12/2022 12:05

I don’t think you owe her a week’s wages. Write down the times she’s been late/left early as well as other times she’s wanted to leave as well as the time you found her with the hoover switched on and not hoovering. Yes it’s fine if she leaves occasionally for an appointment but she should make up the time.

I’ve had cleaners in shared houses where they did all we wanted and more (Town house) and others where we thought the cleaner was skimping but no one was in to check.

Friends and colleagues have had cleaners who work very hard, go the extra mile and are treated like family members.

whynotwhatknot · 10/12/2022 12:06

shes a cf-if you had cancelled fair enough pay her but she cancels and still wants paying?

she also sounds lazy-might get away with it well she does but you have to draw a line

ThinWomansBrain · 10/12/2022 12:08

Surprised you've kept her on this long TBH, let alone booking additional hours
SHd have got rid at the hoover incident.

GoldenGorilla · 10/12/2022 12:09

@Quveas fuck me, why bother posting when you clearly know nothing about it? The cleaner is self-employed. She does not come close to meeting the criteria for actually being an employee under English law. If (which I doubt) there is a written contract for her services, then she is clearly in breach of it and OP has terminated the contract for breach. Ludicrous to suggest OP has to pay her like an employee. She’s not an employee anymore than the OPs hairdresser is.

Willowswood · 10/12/2022 12:10

YANBU

you're not a charity.

NippyWoowoo · 10/12/2022 12:16

YABU. To have kept her for so long!

Onnabugeisha · 10/12/2022 12:17

YANBU OP, she wasn’t doing her work and kept cancelling on you. If she really is disabled or struggling with ill health, sacking her will actually help her in terms of proving she cannot work. Multiple attempts to work always are good evidence when looking at whether a person is fit to work.

As in if she was sat down with the hoover running because she was dizzy/faint, or she cannot do a full 3hrs due to fatigue, and if works too slow to get enough done due to being ill (skipping dusting), and the no notice cancellations are due to illness, etc.

Sacking her is the best thing if she is genuine about I’ll health and the best thing if she was basically conning you.

So youve done right.

tigger1001 · 10/12/2022 12:19

"I'm surprised you let this continue for 9 months when you should have stopped it in its tracks months ago. BUT I am going to disagree with you and everyone else on one thing. Employment does not work like this, and you are acting unlawfully. You owe her a full weeks wages. That's the law. Now she might not do anything about it, but if she does, you will lose. The notice period, in the absence of anything to the contrrary, is one week and you are legally obliged to pay it. Plus any holiday pay which may be due. Your failure to manage her and to deal with issues does not "offset" what your legal obligations are.

Like I said, you may get away with this, but you also may not, and for the sake of acting lawfully and being able to show you have, I think you should ensure that any notice period and holiday pay is paid."

I would be surprised if she was an employee - more likely self employed therefore employment law won't be relevant

woodhill · 10/12/2022 12:23

Isn't the cleaner being paid cash in hand though and isn't it all word of mouth with nothing in writing?

Lotusmonster · 10/12/2022 12:31

It’s giving someone who does care and wants to work a new opening….

oakleaffy · 10/12/2022 12:36

@rubbishcleaner My goodness, that is some serious pisstaking on her part.

As a child, I was asked to hoover, and sat in my room reading a comic, with the hoover running and Dad caught me..and I got a telling off.
He could hear that the hover wasn't moving about.
At 9, it's vaguely excusable, but for a paid cleaner?

No way.
I had a relative {Sadly RIP} who was a diligent housekeeper/cleaner and she was recommended to a well known Ballet dancer of the era by a client and worked for them as she was so good, discreet, punctual and very thorough..including cleaning the tops of doors.
Good cleaners are out there...Word of mouth.
Please do not pay your idle Wastrel a penny.
You owe her nothing.

She is lazy and manipulative.
Get an honest cleaner/housekeeper via word of mouth.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 10/12/2022 12:38

She said she had only sat down for a few mins as felt unwell - I gave her the benefit of the doubt

Even then, who doesn't switch the hoover off if they need to stop for a few minutes? Hoover noise is annoying - why would you want to hear it (and waste electricity) for no reason?!

She seems to have got it into her head that you've somehow agreed to 'sponsor' her for a set amount each week - and in return, as a token of her appreciation, she does a (little) bit of cleaning for you whenever she has nothing else to do and can be bothered. Ridiculous and outrageous of her to try to guilt you for sacking her when she's effectively resigned (on full pay, mind) months ago.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 10/12/2022 12:38

ive messaged that I had paid on numerous occasions for 3 full hours and she hadn’t worked 3 hours so that offsets what she thinks she’s owed

Very sensible of you, OP, though it'll do no good when dealing with a meentality like this

It's natural to want her earnings for Christmas, but that's why she should have earned them instead of expecting to rip you off

Twiglets1 · 10/12/2022 12:38

I thought you would be unreasonable sacking someone so close to Christmas but having read the circumstances, you did the right thing.