Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Christmas train strikes

449 replies

Darthwazette · 05/12/2022 19:58

AIBU to wish the train strike situation could just be sorted out?

Theyve just announced strikes right over Christmas. My family were coming to stay with me and now they can’t. I’ve had to cancel so many visits and trips since these strikes began. I wish they’d just reach an agreement already.

OP posts:
lookersnoopy · 06/12/2022 18:19

Why will the service get worse?

Have you actually read the proposal? Or even just the FT would help you understand? If you make cut backs in key areas the travelling public will ultimately receive a worse service then the one the workers are fighting for now.

carefulcalculator · 06/12/2022 18:21

KnittedCardi · 06/12/2022 18:11

Why will the service get worse?

Because they are going to cut staff, with compulsory redundancies from 2025.

These staff make the railways safe. These staff help passengers.

Alexandra2001 · 06/12/2022 18:37

I'm lost about the side debates on passenger numbers.. why does it matter?

A worker either deserves/needs a pay rise or he/she doesn't... if low numbers mean a low pay rise, why didn't hi numbers in 2019 mean a higher rise? because they very little then too.

We are heading for a recession, possibly the worst since the 1970's
Putting money in peoples pockets as discretionary spending falls can only be a good thing...otherwise the recession will be even worse.

The Govt could of course fund public sector rises (and these part subsidised rail increases by making energy support targeted...
i'm at a loss as to why a very wealthy person gets the same amount of energy support as a MW earner, a basic rate pensioner or a disabled person gets.

DdraigGoch · 06/12/2022 18:45

KatieB55 · 06/12/2022 17:51

Travellers might have more sympathy if the trains ran well when they are not on strike! The service is dreadful to/from the west country at weekends.

And whose fault is that?

Start with successive governments and the system that they created.

By the way I calculated a few years ago that the UK spent the same amount on rail subsidies as Switzerland did. Difference being of course that Switzerland is a small country with a small population so per head the money goes seven times further. That's why services are poor, we're too tight to pay for them.

Chesneyhawkes1 · 06/12/2022 19:21

@MarshaBradyo my trains are south and they are busy. On those reports we are the busiest TOC. We serve 2 airports.

The trains are full and standing at times. 12 car trains. Weekends the same.

There will be some TOC's on there bringing the figures down. Through lack of staff, rolling stock or whatever. Or they just weren't that busy to start with.

I'm not sure how true it is, but I've been told our company are happy to give us a rise. They have the money. The government won't allow them to.

So that will be a whole heap of disruption for nothing. So far we've not been involved in any action. But we were balloted a few weeks ago.

Sapphire387 · 06/12/2022 19:39

CatchYouOnTheFlippetyFlop · 05/12/2022 20:35

Yes 5% this year apparently and 4% next year. I don't think I'll get any rise anytime soon. I don't know anyone getting a rise at all

I do. I work for a union and our officers are getting fantastic payrises for our members.

Solidarity to all the striking brothers and sisters ✊

Fellow union employee here ✊️

We're here fighting for our members' rights, alongside them. Who else will? Your employer is unlikely to give you better t's and c's, and pay, out of the goodness of their heart.

MarshaBradyo · 06/12/2022 19:41

Chesneyhawkes1 · 06/12/2022 19:21

@MarshaBradyo my trains are south and they are busy. On those reports we are the busiest TOC. We serve 2 airports.

The trains are full and standing at times. 12 car trains. Weekends the same.

There will be some TOC's on there bringing the figures down. Through lack of staff, rolling stock or whatever. Or they just weren't that busy to start with.

I'm not sure how true it is, but I've been told our company are happy to give us a rise. They have the money. The government won't allow them to.

So that will be a whole heap of disruption for nothing. So far we've not been involved in any action. But we were balloted a few weeks ago.

Chesney yes there may be discrepancy in SE within that near to half drop.

But I’m not sure why wfh isn’t in the lists people are posting re why. Nearly everyone I know has changed their working pattern, but since that’s just my area the ONS link below gives data for overall picture

Zone2NorthLondon · 06/12/2022 19:50

I can’t decide whether some posters are
A)obtuse
B)stupid
C)selfish
D) stuck and blinkered just repeating tired anti-union tropes

well as I said, way back at start of thread, I support the RMT and think Mike Lynch is fabulous is dealing with biased media

anyway brace yourself , more ballots and industrial action in other sectors very likely. Medics, Health, paramedics

So all the people who clapped, banged pots and drew rainbows in the window will no doubt be against any health industrial action
Get your tropes lined up good & early
i support them, but don’t want to be inconvenienced
They’re paid enough as it is
gold plated pension
they knew what they were signing up to (honestly, no. I had an idealised notion of vocation, and hard work. Was totally unprepared)

DdraigGoch · 06/12/2022 21:35

MarshaBradyo · 06/12/2022 18:06

Do you not think the core customer working patterns is impacting demand in SE which has seen biggest drops as per pp.

Higher earners who used to commute more are now not as much post pandemic. This is the latest I can find but still post pandemic restrictions.

‘Hybrid and homeworking increased by income bracket. More than a third (38%) of workers earning £40,000 or more hybrid worked between 27 April and 8 May 2022, meaning they both worked from home and travelled to work in the latest week.

Workers in this income group were the only ones for whom hybrid working was the most common working pattern. They were also more likely than other income groups to work from home exclusively.’

Pent up demand suggests they want to commute as much as they did pre pandemic but can’t due to your list, but many people prefer it due work life balance / increased wellbeing and quicker.

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/articles/ishybridworkingheretostay/2022-05-23

I don't doubt that commuter traffic is down in the SE. The three franchises that operate south of the river were always pretty inefficient, they'd be packed for a couple of hours in the peaks but for the rest of the day there would be sidings full of spare trains with others rattling around empty.

What I fail to see is why we in the North should have to put up with service cutbacks just because no one is commuting in the South. I stand at Crewe and continually hear the auto announcements saying "this train is expected to be very busy, passengers with flexible tickets may wish to use a different service" on every train to London. Likewise TPE would have more passengers if they could be relied upon to turn up - it's not uncommon for only three of their fifteen Cleethorpes trains to actually run on some days, leaving passengers travelling between Manchester and Sheffield to join a Northern stopper. How many people are claiming refunds as a result of their inability to run a service? The remaining TPE trains aren't exactly quiet anyway, five car 802s have replaced three car 185s but they're still often full.

The demand here is consistently spread throughout the day, all week - trains carrying commuters into Manchester depart full of holidaymakers going to the coast, return with the holidaymakers on their way back and finally work the evening rush hour. Pretty efficient as those trains are full for most of the day. In fact they often leave people behind, such is the demand, I've had scores of passengers stuck at stations for several hours because train after train is too full to squeeze anyone else on. Before the pandemic I remember working a train on an race day and giving up trying to squeeze through and collect revenue, I worked the very same train earlier this year and despite having double the number of coaches I had to give up ticket checking at exactly the same point in the journey.

Even on commuter runs, on many days we're seeing much the same loadings as before the pandemic.

What would really help is better revenue collection. Half of Liverpool Lime Street is unbarriered, to the extent that the residents of Runcorn refer to Avanti services as "the free train". I've taken forty fares on a single departure from Lime Street on a Saturday night. Almost all of whom must have travelled there earlier and avoided being checked. It's chronic at Warrington too, and presumably Wigan NW. They installed barriers at three of our stations about 15 years back, estimating that they'd recoup the outlay in two years. No. Two of the stations recovered it in three months, the other only took one month to pay for the investment - they'd underestimated the problem by a factor of 24.

Perhaps if the government actually tried to be constructive in the way it runs the railway, these negotiations may be different - electrification schemes, installing ticket barriers etc. If you try to balance the books just by cutting costs, you will eventually cut yourself out of business. You need to look at growing revenue at the same time.

DdraigGoch · 06/12/2022 22:03

KnittedCardi · 06/12/2022 18:11

Why will the service get worse?

Have you tried travelling with TPE or Avanti on any given non-strike day? That's what happens when you have cut your way into a staff shortage and have an unhappy workforce. Staff leaving faster than they can be replaced and no one willing to work overtime to help out a company that doesn't care about them.

As for the individual effects of cuts:

Lone woman on a late night train with some creep hanging around? You can try the alarm handle but don't expect a quick response, the driver will have his foot on the override pedal to get to the next station because there will be no guard to come to your immediate aid (never mind patrolling the train as a deterrent, my colleagues and I have intervened to deal with nonces before). The driver certainly will not be coming back alone with no back-up or even a bodycam.

Wheelchair user? The guard or station staff used to put a ramp down for you but they've been cut so would you mind booking 48hrs ahead?

Little old Doris who needs a hand with her shopping trolley? Again would she mind giving 48hrs notice of every journey she makes?

Bought the wrong ticket at the machine or made a hash of your online booking? You'll just have to buy another ticket, there's no booking office to reissue the correct one any more. The company might refund the original in 28 days. If you're lucky. Some booking office clerks reckon that they spend most of their time fixing customers' own errors when using apps or self-service machines. If I had a pound for every time I've charged someone who'd bought the wrong ticket online, I could retire.

Bunch of scallies smoking spliffs? You could send a text in to BTP who might reply by Friday, there's no onboard guard any more you see.

Train involved in an accident with the driver trapped/killed/unconscious? Remember that the driver sits right in the crumple zone. Who is going to contact the signaller, put detonators down and organise an evacuation if there's no guard? In the Ladbroke Grove crash it was very fortunate that some off-duty staff were onboard.

DdraigGoch · 06/12/2022 22:05

i'm at a loss as to why a very wealthy person gets the same amount of energy support as a MW earner, a basic rate pensioner or a disabled person gets.

Probably because means testing is expensive to administer.

Thedogscollar · 06/12/2022 22:18

hamstersarse · 05/12/2022 21:23

The union leaders still get paid on these strike days….just saying

And why wouldn't they? Just saying.

Metabigot · 06/12/2022 22:25

Thedogscollar · 06/12/2022 22:18

And why wouldn't they? Just saying.

If union leaders couldn't get paid on strike days, the non industry specific unions like Unite would effectively be volunteer positions.

Alexandra2001 · 06/12/2022 22:30

DdraigGoch · 06/12/2022 22:05

i'm at a loss as to why a very wealthy person gets the same amount of energy support as a MW earner, a basic rate pensioner or a disabled person gets.

Probably because means testing is expensive to administer.

Yet other countries are doing exactly this and its also why the OECD said the UK would face a longer and deeper recession because of universal support.

Its not just wealthier households but very profitable companies too.

Better targeted support could reduce the demands for pay rises and free up money to pay those that need them most.

The monies spent on universal support is completely unsustainable... gas & electricity prices will remain high for many more years to come & thats before we get onto getting rid of fossil fuel cars in 2030.... just 7 years away.

How will lower earners afford to buy and charge an electric vehicle, without much higher wages?

(2nd hand fossil fuel car prices will sky rocket leading into 2030)

Pouffeycat · 06/12/2022 23:06

I would like the unions to shut first class services down.
I support them.
Annoy those that tend to be against people earning a fair wage.
Obviously it would only work on services that have first class and not commuter routes.
I don't know...but I want to be able to travel and the people who work on the railways to have a decent wage and no redundancies.

Thedogscollar · 06/12/2022 23:08

Zone2NorthLondon · 06/12/2022 19:50

I can’t decide whether some posters are
A)obtuse
B)stupid
C)selfish
D) stuck and blinkered just repeating tired anti-union tropes

well as I said, way back at start of thread, I support the RMT and think Mike Lynch is fabulous is dealing with biased media

anyway brace yourself , more ballots and industrial action in other sectors very likely. Medics, Health, paramedics

So all the people who clapped, banged pots and drew rainbows in the window will no doubt be against any health industrial action
Get your tropes lined up good & early
i support them, but don’t want to be inconvenienced
They’re paid enough as it is
gold plated pension
they knew what they were signing up to (honestly, no. I had an idealised notion of vocation, and hard work. Was totally unprepared)

This in spades. This thread has been an education in the ignorance of the general public on what is happening within this particular sector. Some of the comments are staggeringly ignorant and unfounded.

I work in the NHS. We were clapped for during the pandemic but I know the tide has turned by some of the comments I've seen on other threads re looming strike action within my sector.

This government are no friends of any trade union, known fact. They will manipulate and put out biased information via the Daily Mail and other associated outlets. The public then fall for it hook line and sinker.

Think for yourselves read the FACTS not the rubbish the media want you to believe.

Thedogscollar · 06/12/2022 23:10

Metabigot · 06/12/2022 22:25

If union leaders couldn't get paid on strike days, the non industry specific unions like Unite would effectively be volunteer positions.

Again why should they not get paid for doing their job?
If you were a national union leader would you do it for free? Honestly?

Thepollonator · 06/12/2022 23:41

user7639865 THEY CERTAINLY DO NOT GET £100 A DAY STRIKE PAY!!!!!!

Iamthewombat · 07/12/2022 00:14

I'm lost about the side debates on passenger numbers.. why does it matter?

Because if demand falls, revenue falls. That’s why. A PP explained this and linked to a source showing passenger numbers and ticket revenues down to around 70% of pre-pandemic levels for a recent quarter. Which other industries retain 100% of their staff to serve 70% of the demand?

Other industries affected by reduced demand shrink. Bricks and mortar retail, for example. B&Bs in Blackpool. Manufacture of film for non-digital cameras. Sales of donkey stone for the front step. You can’t artificially prop up those industries if people aren’t using the products and services in the same numbers. That’s what the rail unions are asking for, in my assessment: immunity from the reality everyone else has to deal with.

There are loads of unmanned stations in the north west, where I live. The ticket offices at manned stations are noticeably quieter compared to five years ago. Loads of people buy tickets on their phones or from the machine. So I don’t see why reducing the number of staff in ticket offices, which fewer people are using, is so shocking.

Several pro-strike posters have claimed that the strike is about making the railways safer and more accessible for disabled people, lone women travellers etc. If that is so, why haven’t the unions expressed displeasure before about unmanned stations? Why do you seldom see a conductor on late night trains, and why is it that if you do see one, they aren’t keen to come to the aid of women being hassled by aggressive or drunk men? Why are disabled people and lone women suddenly front and centre?

I assume that it is because it’s a more palatable message than the real reason for the strike, which is, we refuse to accept any redundancies even though demand is down and we want to keep our very generous pension scheme just as it is despite the fact that other public sector or pseudo public sector bodies have moved to average salary schemes.

Iamthewombat · 07/12/2022 00:20

And @Zanatdy is perfectly within her rights to be disappointed that her Christmas lunch plans have been cancelled. I would be too. I don’t like some of the attacks on her. Sneering, calling it “your little lunch”, telling her that she “obviously” doesn’t care about people struggling with the cost of living. Just nasty. She doesn’t have to support the strike. Some posters seem to expect that everyone will rejoice and cheer on the strikers whilst we struggle to travel to see loved ones because of cancelled trains.

MrsSkylerWhite · 07/12/2022 00:24

It’s really difficult for so many people but really, what else can they do?

Can any of your family pick you up? Really sorry that your plans are messed up ☹️

Iamthewombat · 07/12/2022 00:38

They could avoid striking at Christmas. That’s what else they can do. It comes off as spiteful, then we’re supposed to congratulate the unions for making us miserable?

MrsSkylerWhite · 07/12/2022 00:47

Iamthewombat · Today 00:38
They could avoid striking at Christmas. That’s what else they can do. It comes off as spiteful, then we’re supposed to congratulate the unions for making us miserable?”

Unions represent their members. They take action when it will have maximum impact. If they did it on a wet Tuesday in February it would have little impact/effect in these days of WFH.

I’m not saying I agree but I can completely understand the reasoning.

Iamthewombat · 07/12/2022 00:49

Who chooses to make the lives of other ordinary people miserable at Christmas?

MrsSkylerWhite · 07/12/2022 00:50

People at the end of their tether?