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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask whether I can be sacked for this?

133 replies

JustHopingForAnAnswer · 03/12/2022 18:25

I have name-changed for obvious reasons. Anyone know whether staff can be sacked for being in contact with past colleagues?

In order not to drip feed, quick details (necessarily vague) I work in the UK (England) in an industry which seems to have a high turnover of staff at every level. Recently several people have been removed, all a bit of a blow up. I have remained in contact with one of the leavers but learned today that anyone in contact with these past employees is in danger of being "immediately sacked". Surely not a sacking offence?

We have no HR, that's outsourced to just a payroll company, so no-one to ask. But AIBU to think a company can't sack someone for contact with a former employee?

OP posts:
daisychain01 · 03/12/2022 20:05

OverExcitedPanda76 · 03/12/2022 18:41

... and if you take it to logical conclusion, if you quit because of the threat of having to stop being in touch with your former colleague, well, that's constructive dismissal.

Show quote history

Just to be clear, it would not be constructive dismissal. And why would the OP bother citing CD, for which they would have to immediately resign, due to their contract of employment having been made null and void, just for the sake of keeping in contact with some people who used to work there. How pointless.

ThatGirlInACountrySong · 03/12/2022 20:06

Do you belong to a union?

niugboo · 03/12/2022 20:06

@OverExcitedPanda76 you do realise the more you post the clearer it is that you don’t actually know what you’re talking about?

Whattodo182 · 03/12/2022 20:07

Companies legally can't give a "bad" reference. Only a factual.if you smell a sacking, quit before they get chance. Therefore your reference reads;
Start date
End date
Role
Reason for leaving.

But no, they can't actually sack you for being in contact with ex employees. I'm laughing as my DH worked for the same company I do, imagine if this situation cropped up. I'd have to leave him as well presumably 🤷🏼‍♀️

SueVineer · 03/12/2022 20:08

OverExcitedPanda76 · 03/12/2022 19:50

Hmm. Not really, no. Certainly I don't think an employment tribunal would strike a case out without actually hearing the evidence first. And simply stating that you had an existing MH condition that had persisted for over a year would clear that hurdle. Medical evidence is useful, but not absolutely essential. Or at least not in my experience. As for no prospect of success, that depends on what advice you've had. If you can't afford an actual solicitor (and who can, these days?) then they're a lot more lenient. I've never seen costs awarded at employment tribunal, and I've seen much weaker cases than this would be.

Show quote history

This is complete nonsense. Medical evidence is essential is disability claims- you must prove both that you have a disability and that your employer knew about it.

Tribunals are reluctant to dismiss discrimination claims but if they are clearly so ridiculous as the above it would be struck out on a preliminary basis. Certainly there would be a preliminary hearing to establish disability and knowledge which would fail. If it did get the whole way to a full hearing, there could well be a costs order given the claim is so ridiculous. There is no limit on costs that can be awarded.

It’s awful that there is no reliable legal aid or assistance for employment law. If what you say is true, people are relying on your advice and you clearly have no idea.

SueVineer · 03/12/2022 20:11

Whattodo182 · 03/12/2022 20:07

Companies legally can't give a "bad" reference. Only a factual.if you smell a sacking, quit before they get chance. Therefore your reference reads;
Start date
End date
Role
Reason for leaving.

But no, they can't actually sack you for being in contact with ex employees. I'm laughing as my DH worked for the same company I do, imagine if this situation cropped up. I'd have to leave him as well presumably 🤷🏼‍♀️

Again not true. Companies can give a bad reference if they like. You may be able to sue them for defamation if it isn’t true but that will be difficult and expensive

Tempyname · 03/12/2022 20:13

Unlikely. I work in HR and the only thing I could see as a risk here would be if they were criminal/had defrauded company in which case your association may be seen as high risk and/or reputationally damaging to the business.

SueVineer · 03/12/2022 20:13

OverExcitedPanda76 · 03/12/2022 19:43

I mean, I've done this, more than once. But hey, I'm sure you're right. ;-)

The point I think you are missing is that there is no clear-cut measure of whether a claim will succeed, and the employer has far more to lose by rolling the dice. As for the employer knowing about the disability in advance, well, you'd only have to tell them at the time they dismissed you. That's certainly been sufficient in previous claims.

Show quote history

Again complete crap. How could they have dismissed you on the basis of a disability they didn’t know about? How are you possibly going to prove that’s why they dismissed you?

Catmatdat · 03/12/2022 20:13

Tali5ker · 03/12/2022 18:27

As long as you aren’t discussing the company or business at all, you’re fine.

but bear in mind with less than 2 years service they can dismiss you anyway.

Unless the probation period is less than 2 years

niugboo · 03/12/2022 20:15

@Whattodo182 thats a myth re bad reference.

Catmatdat · 03/12/2022 20:15

Whattodo182 · 03/12/2022 20:07

Companies legally can't give a "bad" reference. Only a factual.if you smell a sacking, quit before they get chance. Therefore your reference reads;
Start date
End date
Role
Reason for leaving.

But no, they can't actually sack you for being in contact with ex employees. I'm laughing as my DH worked for the same company I do, imagine if this situation cropped up. I'd have to leave him as well presumably 🤷🏼‍♀️

Yes they can.
they give a reference based on facts.

you are confusing factual with an actual written reference🙃

SueVineer · 03/12/2022 20:15

www.thomasmansfield.com/costs-awards-in-employment-tribunals/

one example of a costs award of £87,000 against an employee who brought a claim which had no merit.

MoniJitchell · 03/12/2022 20:18

How would they know you’re still in touch anyway. Just don’t mention it?

5128gap · 03/12/2022 20:18

niugboo · 03/12/2022 20:03

@5128gap fast typing. A protected characteristic is a thing.

Indeed it is. But to refer to individuals as Protected Characters is not a thing, and its misleading as it gives rise to misconceptions such as you can go to tribunal if you're dismissed and you're disabled, but not if you're not, when in fact everybody has the potential to be discriminated against on the grounds of one or more PCs, and if they are can go to tribunal. I know that's not what you said, but there's so much misunderstanding on here.

niugboo · 03/12/2022 20:21

@5128gap i think in this thread I’m the last thing to worry about and the reality of what it means to have a protected characteristic was explained.

5128gap · 03/12/2022 20:23

niugboo · 03/12/2022 20:21

@5128gap i think in this thread I’m the last thing to worry about and the reality of what it means to have a protected characteristic was explained.

Fair point.🙂

ScotlandEuropa · 03/12/2022 21:11

People who lodge employment tribunal claims with no case to answer, in the hope that their employer will just give them money to get rid of the claim, are grifting chancers.

You only add to the stigma around disabled people trying to enforce their rights.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 03/12/2022 21:13

Being in touch with people who have been dismissed could put you at risk on the grounds of 'mud sticking' - they could believe that it meant you were also involved in whatever they were fired for but were better at staying under the radar/covering your tracks.

That's not right and it's not fair, but it's also no consolation if you find yourself unemployed 'because it's not working out' shortly after you've been found to have contact.

In addition, the scale of the threat could be because a criminal investigation is ongoing - they may have had enough evidence to terminate employment on some grounds, but that's still going on in the background as they're still looking into people still employed who haven't been 'caught'/are covering their tracks better. So your contact could affect the investigation and outcome of that. Or get you being interviewed under caution, suspended and unable to get another job because of that taking months.

In short, unless you live with one of the people fired, it's really not worth the risk.

PickyEaters · 03/12/2022 21:16

Companies spout crap like this all the time; IME it's rarely acted upon.

SnowdaySewday · 03/12/2022 22:00

JustHopingForAnAnswer · 03/12/2022 18:34

The ex-staff were disciplined, it was a bit complicated.

This drip feed is probably the key to what is going on.

Whatever happened with these former colleagues, assuming it went though the correct channels (and there is no reason to think not, given that there is HR involvement, albeit outsourced), would have to be investigated fairly. That process may not be complete, especially if it happened recently, if there is the possibility of criminal proceedings or the ex-colleagues might appeal the decision.

This will be why you have been told not to contact these people. Doing so could have implications such as prejudicing the outcome of the investigation and would be considered misconduct or gross misconduct, which employees can be dismissed for.

You need proper advice from your union, if you are in one, or ACAS.

OverExcitedPanda76 · 04/12/2022 00:34

niugboo · 03/12/2022 19:57

@OverExcitedPanda76 I'm absolutely sure.

In the first instance this person would have to demonstrate that they have a disability. “I’m depressed” doesn’t qualify. You would need to be able to evidence mental health issues that exceed 6 months.

Secondly you would need to be able to establish that you were fired because of that disability. Not easy as in this case the instruction applies to all staff not just the disabled. So you are relying on the indirect discrimination element.

To rely on that you would need to be able to prove that having contact with an untrained individual is a key part of your ability to access employment. That’s impossible.

Yeah, I'm sure you're right. It's not like I've worked in this field or anything...

OverExcitedPanda76 · 04/12/2022 00:37

Theluggage15 · 03/12/2022 19:58

Oh shut up @OverExcitedPanda76 what a twat you sound. Using mental health as a leverage, just making shit up. Trivialising actual mental illness that people struggle with. Fuck off.

Lol. How does it trivialise it? Second thoughts, don't bother, I'm not interested.

OverExcitedPanda76 · 04/12/2022 00:39

niugboo · 03/12/2022 20:06

@OverExcitedPanda76 you do realise the more you post the clearer it is that you don’t actually know what you’re talking about?

Like I said, I used to do this for a living. But hey, you clearly know best.

YouTarzan · 04/12/2022 00:50

So if you were to argue that your friend (and former colleague) was providing you key support with your mental health

its shit like this that makes me roll my eyes these days when people start talking about mental health.

Letsjumpthebroomstick · 04/12/2022 01:41

Join a trade union , OP and ask them for advice. Always get a copy of your contract, any wage slips and join a trade union. You never know when you might need them.

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