To think that Shakespeare is a little intense for Yr 7 English?

[mids2019]

My daughter is studying Romeo and Juliet for Yr 7 English. Am I being unreasonable that this play may have more impact at A level when pupils have greater critical analysis techniques and possibly a greater appreciation for English literature?

I think Shakepeare is a genius of English literature but the language is so dense and tied to contemporary Elizabethian society that I think a Yr 7 pupil could struggle and in some cases actually put pupils off a more gradual approach to literature appreciation.

I also find it difficult explaining to a 12 year old daughter how Juliet (13) is capable of making so such life changing choices such as marriage and ultimately suicide and with the perspective of 21st century society the play does seem remote in experience.

Is the bard best taught at a slightly older age?

@loislovesstewie

Really good point. I wonder what it is that gives the perception that classic literature is 'hard'? I agree you need to pay more attention to sentence structure and I think having some knowledge of the society at the time adds a lot when reading.

Seems to me, just thinking what we covered at school on the 1980s.

It could be the start of a life long appreciation or hatred, not sure which.

I think the Scottish play would be a better start.

@LlynTegid

If you are starting a life long hatred of Shakespeare could this be problematic? Are children in danger of being put off classic literature to their educational detriment? In fact does general academic ability of children have a bearing on what is taught? If there are children struggling with English generally (look at GCSE pass rates) is it the best use of time trying to engage them with wording of the bard?

We do, though?

I've never been in a bookshop that didn't separate books by age - under 5's, 5-8, 8-13, "young adult" and "adult".

I had the book "Lambs' Tales from Shakespeare" as a prezzie when I was about 8, so I knew the stories when I started at Grammar School aged 11.
It was wonderful to read the real versions, & the whole class loved the tragedies - the gorier the better.

@thelobsterquadrille

Which section do you put Shakespeare in?

Well, it's normally under "plays" or "classics" rather than the children's section, but the point still stands that we do "filter" books by age and genre, just like we do films.

Common Sense Media also have a huge section on books.

www.commonsensemedia.org/search/shakespeare

We started Shakespeare when we were 12 years old, in an English-as-a-second-language class. We all loved it!

@thelobsterquadrille

Thank you for the link.

Isn't it a bit more difficult filtering books though? Do you filter on content (sex, violence etc) or the difficulty in comprehension?

It is quite an easy decision preventing a young child watching 'Game of Thrones' but maybe more difficult with books? I guess of there was a graphic description is some violent or sexual event that would immediately place the book in an adult section but there must be a lot of literature that falls into a grey area.

Are those that are saying the class loved Shakepeare at a young age those whose class in general achieved good grades in English Language and Literature? If a school has a high proportion of pupils that are at risk of failing English at GCSE level do they have the same level of engagment?

I was taught Shakespeare's Midsummer Night's Dream from the equivalent of Y7, and another play a year until A Level. Well taught it gives an unparalleled appreciation of English. As others have said we also did Chaucer (for O Level) and Milton, too. If it was accessible then it should be now.

Ds school has recently moved from ofsted inadequate to Good. It is generally quite a poor socio-economic area.

one of the biggest changes on the English curriculum has been to the scope of books studies and the encouragement of reading for fun. Each English class has a text they are studying and one which they are just reading as a class novel. In ks3 once a fortnight they have a class in the library focused on encouraging reading a variety of texts.

since this change their exam results for English have massively improved.

i think sometimes even the most avid of readers can get stuck in a rut of one kind of book so anything that encourages diversity in reading material is good.

@Sirzy

Really interesting point. I think reading as a pleasure is critical in terms of long term English mastery and appreciation of literature. However so children start reading Shakepeare for 'fun', is there a contradiction here? This may be utterly false equivalence but is teaching Shakepeare to a lower set English class the same as teaching partial differential equations to a lower Maths set? Do you risk disengagement by introducing challenging texts?

My love of Shakespeare came from my year six teacher. I don't think the themes are too old if taught correctly and in an engaging way.

The globish nature of our language now, it's exciting to bring in Shakespeare

Well, how are you defining comprehension? I could read all the words in adult books from a relatively young age but I didn't understand the plots in the same way I do as an adult.

I mean, an 8yo child reading Harry Potter won't see things in the same way an adult reading it for the first time, but I don't know anyone who would argue that the early Harry Potter books are unsuitable for young children based on comprehension issues alone.

@Reliant
@lost
@thelobsterquadrille

Isn't diagnosed of the beauty of books that they can be read at different levels by different ages of the author is talented enough.

I mean the conversation between Samson and Gregory in R and J when interpreted correctly would push the play into the adult category with 'pretty pieces of flesh' and 'thrusting maidenheads against the wall'. Of course a 10 year old for instance wouldn't get this reference so we can happily teach the bard to a young age.

Isn't it the beauty of books....haven't a clue about how diagnose got in there!

Or conversely do you risk disengaging them if they aren’t being challenged and feel the choice of texts is infantising them?

just because they are a lower set doesn’t mean they can’t engage and enjoy texts. Ds school actually doesn’t set for English anymore which I was unsure of but it seems to work well

Exactly and I think that is the beauty of books over films it leaves so much more down to the reader and their take on things.

when I reread books now I read when I was much younger I read them from a very different perspective and as such take different things away from it.

God, how fucking depressing it that?!

Isn't diagnosed of the beauty of books that they can be read at different levels by different ages of the author is talented enough.

Definitely, which is why I think so many books can be enjoyed by people of all ages.

Remember, you're an adult, so you're reading Shakespeare from an adult view - with all the knowledge and experience and understanding that comes with it. Children don't have that experience and understanding, so they read it through a childs' eyes and take away different things than you do.

Shakespeare is inappropriate for young people just because you see it differently than they do.

Oops, isn't inappropriate for young people.

a general point about classic literature is whether we need to be very careful to contextualize the work as societal views have changed so much? For instance women were held in a very different position in centuries gone by so how do we get children now to relate to for instance Jane Austen? Another Shakepeare example is Richard the third where disability is associated with a malign character which obviously is completely alien to our modern perceptions?

You just tell them, the way you always told them. Can't think of any class I've ever taught where social/historical context hasn't been part of the teaching. Amazingly, they get it. For the most part.

Current "carefulness" has resulted in some bizarre usage though: seeing Othello referred to as African-American, anything rather than use the word "black/Black".

That is incredibly academically snobbish and limiting. Just because someone is in a lower set doesn’t mean they can’t find meaning and enjoyment in Shakespeare. Therein lies the skill of the teacher, to scaffold so the text is accessible. Your idea just reinforces the attainment gap!

(And the analogy to partially differential equations is just as they are only lightly touched on (if at all) in A level maths but mainly undergrad level, so you are n’t teaching them to the top set either!)