To think that Shakespeare is a little intense for Yr 7 English?

[mids2019]

My daughter is studying Romeo and Juliet for Yr 7 English. Am I being unreasonable that this play may have more impact at A level when pupils have greater critical analysis techniques and possibly a greater appreciation for English literature?

I think Shakepeare is a genius of English literature but the language is so dense and tied to contemporary Elizabethian society that I think a Yr 7 pupil could struggle and in some cases actually put pupils off a more gradual approach to literature appreciation.

I also find it difficult explaining to a 12 year old daughter how Juliet (13) is capable of making so such life changing choices such as marriage and ultimately suicide and with the perspective of 21st century society the play does seem remote in experience.

Is the bard best taught at a slightly older age?

@SuperCamp

I appreciate your point but are we in danger of telling people what they should enjoy? I guess if I appreciated a piece of art that was not generally recognised as being of quality would that make that appreciation any less important?

I suppose you can extend the idea to literature ; if I enjoyed an autobiography of David Beckham should that pleasure be regarded lesser than the pleasure derived from reading a Shakespearean sonnet? Are these things subjective?

Someone raised the point of snobbery in deciding which literature was 'worthy' but are schools essentially doing this?

The younger they start the better it is. Mine were 9 & 7 when we saw R&J ballet. Loads of death and sword fights.

There are also similarities! Children can read the classics at different ages and gradually understand more and more, it's the same with Maths. They learn to count from 0, they later develop this into numbers below 0, they're told there isn't a square root of a negative number but later will learn complex numbers. Their knowledge of both the classics and Mathematics becomes more sophisticated as they get older.

Someone raised the point of snobbery in deciding which literature was 'worthy' but are schools essentially doing this?

But schools only have a limited number of hour/days/years to teach children. It's physically impossible to include a wide variety of books from every single genre. There just isn't the time.

While that's true, you still can't do difficult mathematics without getting through the basics.

But with English, once you have a basic understanding of language, you can read everything.

@JudgeJ

They do! However I guess schools would not actively encourage watching East Enders or playing violent video games. You say that East Enders is relatively poor writing compared to the bard but is that subjective? If some one enjoys the strained family dynamics in East Enders is this worse than enjoying the rather interesting familial relationships in Hamlet?

The quality of writing is subjective, though.

We teach (and perform) Macbeth in Year 5 and The Tempest in Year 6. We use the RSC workshop materials and they love it. They leave Primary knowing that they can 'do' Shakespeare and that Shakespeare belongs to them!

Does some of that not come down to the difference between written word and TV/film though? Things on screen is much less down to personal interpretation of the topic than written word where we make our own images

It's brilliant when it's taught properly.

I agree. And British school kids should be taught to take pride in Shakespeare as well. Other nations are proud of their writers and painters, so I don’t see why we shouldn’t be. I’d always steer the young away from nationalism and hatred, but they should take pride in being from the island that produced Chaucer, Shakespeare, John Donne, Milton, Blake, Jane Austen, Wordsworth, Shelley, Keats, Dickens, Hardy, Wilfred Owen, Virginia Woolf, etc, not to mention Newton and Darwin. And that is true no matter what their heritage. If you are born on this island, those writers and thinkers are a part of you. They are woven into the landscape and culture you grow up in. It makes no difference if your dad is Indian or your mum is Polish.

To me, that is a healthy, inclusive kind of patriotism. Very few countries have such a rich cultural and intellectual inheritance. We really should make more of it.

Seriously? 🤨

@KingscoteStaff

Is there difference between doing Shakepeare and enjoying Shakespeare? Does a primary school child appreciate the misguided ambition of Macbeth or the soul destroying guilt of Lady Macbeth? I guess it comes down to the plays meaning different things at different ages (I wouldn't want my happy 10 year old child coming home reciting 'Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow'' with conviction :)

*I agree. And British school kids should be taught to take pride in Shakespeare as well. Other nations are proud of their writers and painters, so I don’t see why we shouldn’t be. I’d always steer the young away from nationalism and hatred, but they should take pride in being from the island that produced Chaucer, Shakespeare, John Donne, Milton, Blake, Jane Austen, Wordsworth, Shelley, Keats, Dickens, Hardy, Wilfred Owen, Virginia Woolf, etc, not to mention Newton and Darwin. And that is true no matter what their heritage. If you are born on this island, those writers and thinkers are a part of you. They are woven into the landscape and culture you grow up in. It makes no difference if your dad is Indian or your mum is Polish.

To me, that is a healthy, inclusive kind of patriotism. Very few countries have such a rich cultural and intellectual inheritance. We really should make more of it.*

Absolutely!!

Does a primary school child appreciate the misguided ambition of Macbeth or the soul destroying guilt of Lady Macbeth?

But that's just it - there are things children can appreciate and enjoy at different ages, and their understanding will change. A university student will obviously appreciate Shakespeare plays differently to a GCSE student for instance.

@Sure
@surreygirl1987

I think you have a good point but don't we start into conversations about 'cancel culture' here and vexed questions about cultural identity.

The question I guess is what are the best authors to teach to a group of multi ethnic children with a variety of cultural influences and backgrounds. Shakespeare is brilliant but how do you prevent him becoming 'a dead white male'?

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000tv2n

@surreygirl1987

I agree part of the genius of Shakepseare is its appeal at various ages. My slight concern though is that Shakepserare wrote for an adult audience and therefore it is ultimately adult themed. Do children love Macbeth for instances simply because of the witches? Do primary school children 'he'd the massacre of MacDuff's children and if not how is this discussed?

get

Dead white male he may be, but he wrote some cracking roles for women. Granted, it would be a good few years before a woman could actually play them, but I’m grateful for the legacy.

He set plays in Italy, Greece, France, Denmark…

His speeches bring up so many moral and philosophical questions. Think about Shylock’s speech in The Merchant of Venice, for example…”if you prick me, do I not bleed?’ It certainly brings into question whether the play is really anti-Semitic. There’s a debate to be had there.

Romeo and Juliet can be made relevant by looking at the relationships between the young people and the adults - where was the guidance? And the mindless gang violence sadly still has relevance today.

That was the genius of the man. He was male, and pale, but 400+ years later and he still isn’t stale.

DD did Macbeth in Year 4. It culminated in the school putting on a performance of their interpretation of it at the local theatre with a few other schools. I’ve just asked her and she said she loved it, she said all the kids seemed to, even those who weren’t so sure at the start. She said she loved that they were acting in a “proper play”, one that people have been performing in various forms for hundreds of years.
They did some bits word-for-word Shakespeare, and some bits kind of reworded in their interpretation. She’s looking forward to doing more Shakespeare in future - so if nothing else, it’s at least started them off on a positive footing.

The question I guess is what are the best authors to teach to a group of multi ethnic children with a variety of cultural influences and backgrounds. Shakespeare is brilliant but how do you prevent him becoming 'a dead white male'?

But this is English Literature. It's not a general course about global literature. That would be a different subject entirely.

And, whether we like it or not, most historically significant authors in this country are dead white males, so that's what the curriculum is going to be dominated by. Yes, there are African authors like Chinua Achebe, or female authors like Jane Austen included, but there is only a certain amount of time to teach a certain number of texts.

It's impossible to teach everything to everyone.

Odds on you did it in y7. If you think your child isn’t comprehending it you can get numerous modern translations/alternatives - I worked in a school library for 2 years and we found graphic novels a great Segway into Shakespeare for reluctant readers. I personally think the stories are timeless and the best way into them is at a young age. The understanding of the language comes later! Although I’d go for a midsummer night’s dream for a newcomer to the bard.

Shakespeare is amazing for all ages because there is so much you can take from it. It can be fun, dramatic, gory, rude, hilarious, and everything else.

I know I did it at that age, if not younger, and Romeo and Juliet is so accessible compared to some of the history plays.

Were you educated outside of the UK, OP? I wonder if English isn’t your first language. Fewer than 40,000 students take English Lit A Level. If we saved Shakespeare until then the vast majority of people would leave school having never read him.