to not have a clue what to do about this baby's sleep?

[MarmeeMarch4]

My 18 month old will not sleep. She is my fourth. She is not the first I've had who is a light/tricky sleeper. My first was very similar- very strong-willed. We've tried everything at this point. Feeding and patting just don't have any effect- she'll literally feed for six hours non-stop and never drop off. She'll lie still if you pat her but even if you do it for three hours, the second you take your hand away she's awake. Co-sleeping doesn't work - we did it for 14 months but she is now just stimulated by our presence in the bed and is awake all night if I bring her in with me. We resorted to controlled crying as a last resort. We did this with my first at 18 months and it was tough but it worked. The other two we didn't do this with - they slowly settled into routines of their own. But with this baby it doesn't work. She literally pulled off all her sleep bags/pyjamas etc to get better traction on her feet so she could climb out of her cot. We had to put her in a bed with a stairgate at the door. She will cry for hours. I've tried gently cuddling/holding her in the bed so she has to relax and sleep. She did it once - then the second time just went wild until morning. Today she has been up since 3 again - her usual wake-up time - and I have had to give up. Whether I left her to cry or held her or fed her or gave her medicine it wouldn't matter. Nothing gets her to sleep. It's constant wake ups until 3, and then up.

She has a good nap - 2 hours 11.30-1.30. She has a good, consistent bedtime routine and goes to sleep at the start of the night by herself with minimal fuss. Sometimes she cries briefly but usually she reaches out to the bed, snuggles in and drops off. She is still breastfeeding and I am desperate to stop but she is like a newborn with it - we got it down to morning and night feeds about six weeks ago, but then she seemed to redouble her efforts. Yesterday I went to a friend's and literally fed her 9,30-11.30 unti she slept, then 1.30-3 when I had to go and do th school run. The whole way round the school run she was trying to open my coat for a feed. She cried the whole time I was making dinner and had to be appeased with TV and her sisters' massive efforts to entertain her. She fed for an hour before her bedtime routine. It just never ends.

I am struggling to get any work done. I am struggling even to leave her with anybody as she just cries for me. I'm terrified she has a deep attachment issue even though I was at home with her for 15 months, totally attachment parenting, and my return to work has been extremely gentle compared with the other three times. I am responsive, kind, nurturing. I am prepared to be tough if needed. But I am all out of ideas. We're all running on empty. I just don't know what the fuck to do. The health visitor says it's a moment in time. But I can't keep going like this.

She has a good nap - 2 hours 11.30-1.30. She has a good, consistent bedtime routine and goes to sleep at the start of the night by herself with minimal fuss.

Please correct time if I have this wrong but it sounds to me like she sleeps something like 6-3 or 7-4 so 8-9 hours * *straightaway night. With a 2 hour nap.

My first thoughts are she needs 3 good meals a day, with only 2 breast feeds. The nap needs to be after midday and 45 minutes only. She will be grumpy for a few days, but by the end of the week I reckon she will be sleeping better.

Put her to bed later. Much later. 9 or 10pm later. Then she might sleep til 7. (With wake-ups still probably). I also have a terrible sleeper but I could not be dealing with 3am starts.
At 18 months you can absolutely start putting limits and conditions on breastfeeding - you could choose to nightwean for example. You can tell her it’s not time for milk, it’s time for a snack/drink in a cup. You could try her on cow’s milk. You could also just tell her the milk is all gone now (worked on my milk obsessed almost 2year old when I decided to stop). Some mums find it helps to go away for a weekend so there’s no way to give in the the demands for milk!

Oh OP, that sounds rough. I think you know what you need to do though. Go completely cold Turkey on the breastfeeding. It sounds as though you are effectively being used as a human dummy. Your DD has now formed a feed to sleep attachment and it needs to be broken. If it’s an option I’d go away for one or two nights. It’s going to be rough on your DH but it will benefit you all massively. You can’t go on like this x

I'm sorry, that sounds really tough and stressful. I hope it'll get better soon.

What time is her bedtime? Could it be she's not tired yet? That would explain the fighting and 3am wake-up. My 15 month old goes to sleep 8-10 pm and wakes up around 7. He also naps for 2 hours during the day.

Other than that have you checked all the sleeping red flags? Maybe there's something going on that disturbs her sleep.

Lastly her behaviour seems like she's going through separation anxiety. It's probably temporary (and very tough). How is she doing in her childcare setting? Did she settle fine?

Please correct time if I have this wrong but it sounds to me like she sleeps something like 6-3 or 7-4 so 8-9 hours straightaway night. With a 2 hour nap.

Good god NO!!!! SHe is waking up ENDLESSLY between 7 and 3. Every hour or two and each time harder and harder to resettle. Then at 3 that's it, theres no resettling no matter what we do.

On the breastfeeding issue, I DID put limits in. We got down to morning and night-time feeds but nothing in the day. But honestly, she is deeply deeply miserable unless she is feeding at the moment. I keep thinking it's teething and that she needs the pain relief, but it just never ends. She is pulling at my top and crying all day. I just don't see how I could go cold turkey at this point without actually going on holiday and leaving her - and it would be utter, utter hell for that person.

On the separation anxiety, I agree. She isn't in a childcare setting - as I said, she goes to my mum 1.5 days a week and to my SIL a morning a week. At first she was absolutely fine with this (in September). She is very happy and comfortable with both those people. But gradually she has become unmanageable for them so that now they often call me after a couple of hours and have to drop her back. It's a constant distraction from breastfeeding. My mum makes it 3-4 hours including getting her to nap but then she's just so distressed and inconsolable. I work in the evenings so I need her to be asleep by around 8pm - I also have three other children to get to bed - so I just don't think 10pm bedtimes are an option. Maybe I'll have to do that temporarily.

I guess this just doesn't feel normal to me. It's not like I haven't been around the block a few times before - I have! But this is just untenable. I agree I probably need to stop the breastfeeding but I can't help but feel something is going on that is making her need it.

OP, sounds terrible

I'm going to go the other way to other posters and suggest that's she's chronically over tired. She needs a few days of more daytime sleep to catch up then aim for a 7pm(ish) bedtime. They sleep better when they are well rested and I don't believe for a second that she is, and I think that might also be another (on top of possibly teething) reason she's feeding so much.

The weaning from breastfeeding thing is a whole other issue that I'm not really sure I can help with
Good luck with it OP

Pain.. Could she be in pain? Reflux that is soothed by constant trickle of breast milk going down the gullet, thus not allowing acid up the gullet, making everything hurt? If she lies down, it starts to hurt, so it wakes her up? I'd be thinking in terms of pain.

At that age I had to do a much later bedtime at around 9pm.. it was the only way. We gradually brought it forward once the sleep improved.

As another poster said, it could be reflux. Two of mine have it albeit much younger. You could try some infant gaviscon and see if that makes a difference? Or some calpol in case it’s teeth? It really is a bit of a guessing game when they’re so little. I can only speak from seeing two friends quite literally used as dummies by their babies and toddlers though. There was nothing wrong with either, they just wanted to be on the boob all the time. It was hell for my friends so you have my complete sympathy as I saw how absolutely knackered they were.

Have you tried using the Huckleberry app? I only started yesterday for my son and already seeing some benefits

I agree. I think she's chronically overtired and it's a desperate cycle.

I'll have a think about the more daytime sleep and the later bedtimes etc - something needs to change so we need to try to break the patterns we're in one way or another.

Forgot to add that Calpol and Nurofen seem to make no difference, which makes me think maybe not pain or teeth. I hadn't thought about reflux though at all - I'll look into it. Thank you.

I should add that she's the loveliest kid - and when she isn't feeding, sleeping or crying about feeding and sleeping she's just so funny, clever, and loving. She's as stubborn as a mule and obviously I don't want to crush that strong spirit, and I love her with every piece of my heart. I just need some fucking sleep.

Ooh never heard of it. Will look it up. Thank you.

I'd agree that she's over tired I think. I would not reduce naps. Have you played lullabies? I let DS watch nursery rhymes when he can't get back to sleep, it's the fight that's keeping them awake. When he thinks he's won he falls to sleep and at least he sits still so I can doze until he falls back to sleep.

I'll try anything at this point!

Yesterday I went to a friend's and literally fed her 9,30-11.30 unti she slept, then 1.30-3 when I had to go and do th school run

She needs more exercise & running about. I imagine she just isn't tired enough to sleep all night if she is feeding like this during the day instead of playing.

Sorry I don't have any advice though. Could you send her to nursery to give you a break during the day & encourage her to be more active?

You need to wean her off the breastfeeding so she isn't so dependent on you.

Chronic ear infection ? Even if there’s no pain she will still feel all stuffed up and sucking and swallowing relieves that feeling on pressure in the sinuses (same reason airlines give out boiled sweets before landing).

Overtired is a lot rarer than undertired. What is she like feeding when you're out and about with lots of distractions like a soft play or a farm etc? That's how I weaned my son at 16 months, just kept him busy and distracted all day and topped up on food then on a night told him "milk was all gone" and we cuddled to sleep. Been out and busy helps tire them out too! I think she's catching up from her broken sleep at the 2 hour nap, and I think slowly capping this and moving bedtime back slightly could help. Some babies have low sleep needs unfortunately! Good luck though, I feel for you! Some resources to look into - possums sleep, georgina may, hey sleepy baby. Non of which are sleep training!

I would definitely wean her. Go away for a weekend. Get some rest yourself. Or look up Jay Gordon’s weaning method. She will eat better and she will learn to be soothed by cuddles and someone else.

i also echo someone else who said she must be chronically overtired. This causes less sleep and floods the body with adrenaline and makes us crave sugar (probably hence the breastfeeding too). It sounds like her sleep is in an awful place. Your GP or health visitor can refer you to paediatric sleep clinic. They will give you support and can offer things such as melatonin to get her on a better schedule.

you both deserve rest - you’re clearly trying everything. She clearly has got into a rut of exhaustion and taken you with it too. Ask for a referral. Say you almost fell asleep at the wheel and you can’t work. Make them take it seriously.

I also recommend the group Respectful sleep training and learning on Facebook but I do think you might need medical help before you can pick a technique to soothe her during the night.

good luck.

I’ve also got an 18months old, it’s so hard to know what’s up at this age 😔

I’d agree that I think she’s very overtired and too reliant on being soothed with boob. 1:30 > till bedtime is a long time so she’s full of cortisol (stress hormones) which make sleeping and staying asleep hard.

I would recommend speaking to a sleep consultant to see what they’d recommend or you could try some of her tips out.

linktr.ee/just_chill_mama?fbclid=PAAabxLnnAG6qUJ68jL0GqjJGMJZgU7tHrEX5k5WsAswJVQJktpQnbbKrgdnY

does she eat normals foods? How do you find the time to feed her for hours during the day? 😳

Stop the day nap, or seriously reduce how long it's for. Make bedtime later than 7. And sorry OP but I would be stopping breastfeeding at this point for your own sanity.

Peanut butter on toast before bed works really well for DS too!

For us too.

That's not true - we attend playgroups, go to the park, she goes swimming once a week, she has three sisters she plays with when they get home. We're very active. But if she gets the chance to feed, that's what she wants to do.

She does eat normally, though she's a sugar fiend (which echoes what somebody said upthread about being overtired).

To all saying to wean off breastfeeding - I'm trying! In September I stuck plasters on my boobs, told her it was gone, and she was restless and cranky about it but after a couple of days she was pointing at them and saying 'gone!' and happily eating other foods. She'd try to feed, and if she was cutting a tooth or had a cold etc she'd be much more persistent of course. But overall we were down to 1-2 feeds in 24 hours by half term.

Now I'm in a constant battle to distract her, offer her alternatives, keep her going without, but you can't imagine how upset she gets and she doesn't give up. It's a constant preoccupation for her and she's distraught without it. It feels like, as much as I would like to give up, she needs the comfort right now (although I appreciate it can be a vicious cycle). And to somebody who asked me how I have the time - I don't! My house is a shit tip. I'm MILES behind at work and have missed multiple deadlines. I'm not about to get the sack or anything and it will all be ok, but it's really difficult. It's just wild right now.

Anyway, I really really appreciate the tips, resources and suggestions and will work through them right now. Thank you so much.