Page 7 | After school clubs

HereBeFuckery · 2022-11-28T16:46:44+00:00

Once again, primary school cancel a pre-arranged after school activity with 27 mins notice before the end of the school day. Last week, they notified us 12 minutes AFTER the end of the day that the club was cancelled and to collect children from the school office 'immediately'. I get that clubs aren't childcare or guaranteed, but essentially, if you work (y'know, like most parents) you have to say 'no darling, you can't do X fun after school activity' because you, as a parent, would have to be free, not in a meeting and within five mins drive of school just in case they cancel at zero notice AGAIN. Even a couple of hours would mean I could sort something out. In 20 mins I have no chance. WIBU to make a formal complaint to governors about the piss poor communication?

WhackerWay · 28/11/2022 22:57

I'm still not really any the wiser about why after school clubs (which we pay for) are not childcare but wrap around clubs (which we pay for) are childcare?

I've also never heard the term enrichment used in this context either and it's confusing me more to be honest. Hopefully any activity your child does is enriching whether it is going to nursery or a childminder, attending an activity club or wrap around club or going on a trip, doing activities at home etc? My kids went to an amazing and exceptional nursery that did things we could never have offered our children- it was incredibly enriching. But according to this post it was childcare not an enrichment activity?

I'm concluding from this thread that people's opinions are based on whether their clubs are free or not? On this basis free=not childcare and not free=childcare

pellythefamouspenguin · 28/11/2022 23:14

I wouldn't rely on the after school clubs like this as childcare, as they can and do get cancelled pretty regularly. At our school, kids can go to one of these then onto the actual (so childcare) after school club, which means all kids can attend, not just those with a SAHP.
But, if you're just using the activity ASC, you have to accept that you may need to be available at normal pick-up time.
That said, if I hadn't been told in advance (like, at least by lunchtime-2pm-ish), I wouldn't be rushing to the school to collect my child with short notice if I wasn't immediately available. The school have ti accept not everyone will be 10mins away.

CurlyhairedAssassin · 28/11/2022 23:27

Perhaps 'enrichment' is only for kids with a SAHP. That's the message I am getting loud and clear from this school. Fucking ace.

I do wonder exactly what parents expect of schools. Their main role is to educate children. Our after school clubs finish at 4.15. That probably doesn't suit a lot of working parents either. Even if you did pull out all the stops and put an afterschool club on till 5.30pm you'd still have parents strolling in late not even apologising, or complaining that the price had gone up (yeah, that will be to cover the later time the caretaker and office staff have to stay there until). Or others would complain that they have to get the bus home as they don't have a car and so they can't get there till 6pm, so could you run the club till 6pm? Perhaps it's the actual childcare providers who need to be changing their policies/staffing so that they can pick up from the after school enrichment activities? Or perhaps the childcare providers need to be offering enrichment sesssions to take place at THEIR location?

I've discovered since working in a primary school that there are parents out there who seem to want school to bring their children up for them. It has been an eye opener. So different to when my own two were younger only 10 years ago. Then, parents would be waiting in the playground at the end of the day for the doors to open so they would be there to greet their child. Now it's the teacher stood waiting at the classroom door for the parents/grandparents/childminder to arrive. You get parents who don't want to come to take their child to the walk in centre to get checked out if they've had a fall in the playground. Or to come a bit earlier because their 5 year old child has vomited and is sitting pale, miserable and shivering outside the office. Our nursery staff have a half hour lunch break between morning and afternoon half-day sessions. This year has been terrible for parents thinking it's fine to stroll up the path 15 mins after their child's morning session has finished, without so much as an apology. It's so damned rude and thoughtless when staff are on their much-needed unpaid lunch breaks.

As for complaints about things like after school clubs, I've had parents complaining saying "All the sports club places were taken up within half an hour of being released on the payment app. I'm working at that time. I think you should release them when most people are home."

Ah right, so you want me to log back on at 6.30pm at home, after being home for only 45 mins, when I only get paid to 4.30pm anyway, JUST so that I can release the club places, for your convenience?

Schools try so so so hard with minimal resources. The staff are heroes, they really are. The children are precious to them and they treat them like their own and I do think some parents take advantage of this and struggle to see "education" as being separate from "care of your child."

I get the working parent thing. Been there myself. But school staff are not there solely to look after your child till it's convenient for you to take over. Hire a nanny or au pair if you have very specific childcare needs.

EmmaDilemma5 · 28/11/2022 23:34

HereBeFuckery · 28/11/2022 22:23

Okay, to clarify:

These are extra curricular clubs. Run by school staff.

They have been cancelled with (tonight) 27 mins notice between the cancellation message and the end of the school day, (last week) 12 mins AFTER the end of the school day - I.e. 12 mins into when the activity should have started, (three weeks ago) with just over 30 mins notice, and all of last term with no more than forty mins notice of cancellation. Four cancellations between May half term and July. Not once was enough notice given. These can't all be unforeseen!

I do pay for after school club/wraparound. I don't pay for it on nights when there is supposed to be an enrichment club. Luckily our ASC (paid) is amazing and will fit DD in at no notice (I guess they are used to school now!) and just bill me for it.

I do think it's shit to give zero notice REGULARLY. As a one off - obvs I would assume emergency. It's not a one off, it's every time it's cancelled. It's clearly not a priority. Fits with the school ethos of everything being suited to non working parents ("chat to your child's teacher at drop off or pick up"; "head will be on the gates at end of the day to speak to").

I am a teacher myself, I also run enrichment clubs. I have never given less than 24 hrs notice of cancellation and that's for secondary age kids who get themselves home.

I cannot check my phone or emails when I am teaching. Even if I could, I cannot start contacting ASC or our back up (granny). Especially not during the last teaching period of the day. If the message of cancellation was sent out before lunch, I could deal with arrangements then.

I guess the message is, DD can't do enrichment clubs because her school cannot be arsed to give enough cancellation notice to allow me to scramble emergency childcare when clubs are called off - I cannot keep expecting paid after school club to take her ad hoc, it's a pain for them in terms of staffing and not a reasonable way to behave.

Perhaps 'enrichment' is only for kids with a SAHP. That's the message I am getting loud and clear from this school. Fucking ace.

Haha you're hilarious!

You are using them as free childcare. You are annoyed you're having to pay for childcare when a club isn't on, yet you'd have to anyway if they didn't run clubs.

I suggest you buy proper childcare and not rely on free clubs that people offer in their own time.

Original poster

HereBeFuckery · 29/11/2022 05:30

My actual point is getting buried under the pile on.

I am NOT annoyed that the club run by a teacher is (regularly) cancelled. That's their prerogative.

I AM annoyed that school give less than 30 mins notice of that cancellation every time they cancel. I don't understand how it's possible to ONLY EVER find out that late on that a teacher is sick. Do primaries not have cover lists?

As for 'things have changed in 10 years' no shit, eh? We have to work now. Do you think I LIKE not knowing what my kid's teacher looks like because I work full time and she does wrap around care? This rosy tinted 50s view that primaries have that the 'norm' is mum (usually) dropping the kid and picking them up each day needs to be updated. Sharpish.

OP posts:

Original poster

HereBeFuckery · 29/11/2022 05:31

@BetterBeGryffinphwoar
"As do you."

As do I what, sorry? I don't understand.

OP posts:

Plumbear2 · 29/11/2022 05:35

HereBeFuckery · 29/11/2022 05:30

My actual point is getting buried under the pile on.

I am NOT annoyed that the club run by a teacher is (regularly) cancelled. That's their prerogative.

I AM annoyed that school give less than 30 mins notice of that cancellation every time they cancel. I don't understand how it's possible to ONLY EVER find out that late on that a teacher is sick. Do primaries not have cover lists?

As for 'things have changed in 10 years' no shit, eh? We have to work now. Do you think I LIKE not knowing what my kid's teacher looks like because I work full time and she does wrap around care? This rosy tinted 50s view that primaries have that the 'norm' is mum (usually) dropping the kid and picking them up each day needs to be updated. Sharpish.

No I don't think primaries have cover lists for school clubs. The teachers who run them do it out of the goodness of their own hearts. Yes cover lists in class time but you carnt expect cover outside of school hours.

Plumbear2 · 29/11/2022 05:36

CurlyhairedAssassin · 28/11/2022 23:27

Perhaps 'enrichment' is only for kids with a SAHP. That's the message I am getting loud and clear from this school. Fucking ace.

I do wonder exactly what parents expect of schools. Their main role is to educate children. Our after school clubs finish at 4.15. That probably doesn't suit a lot of working parents either. Even if you did pull out all the stops and put an afterschool club on till 5.30pm you'd still have parents strolling in late not even apologising, or complaining that the price had gone up (yeah, that will be to cover the later time the caretaker and office staff have to stay there until). Or others would complain that they have to get the bus home as they don't have a car and so they can't get there till 6pm, so could you run the club till 6pm? Perhaps it's the actual childcare providers who need to be changing their policies/staffing so that they can pick up from the after school enrichment activities? Or perhaps the childcare providers need to be offering enrichment sesssions to take place at THEIR location?

I've discovered since working in a primary school that there are parents out there who seem to want school to bring their children up for them. It has been an eye opener. So different to when my own two were younger only 10 years ago. Then, parents would be waiting in the playground at the end of the day for the doors to open so they would be there to greet their child. Now it's the teacher stood waiting at the classroom door for the parents/grandparents/childminder to arrive. You get parents who don't want to come to take their child to the walk in centre to get checked out if they've had a fall in the playground. Or to come a bit earlier because their 5 year old child has vomited and is sitting pale, miserable and shivering outside the office. Our nursery staff have a half hour lunch break between morning and afternoon half-day sessions. This year has been terrible for parents thinking it's fine to stroll up the path 15 mins after their child's morning session has finished, without so much as an apology. It's so damned rude and thoughtless when staff are on their much-needed unpaid lunch breaks.

As for complaints about things like after school clubs, I've had parents complaining saying "All the sports club places were taken up within half an hour of being released on the payment app. I'm working at that time. I think you should release them when most people are home."

Ah right, so you want me to log back on at 6.30pm at home, after being home for only 45 mins, when I only get paid to 4.30pm anyway, JUST so that I can release the club places, for your convenience?

Schools try so so so hard with minimal resources. The staff are heroes, they really are. The children are precious to them and they treat them like their own and I do think some parents take advantage of this and struggle to see "education" as being separate from "care of your child."

I get the working parent thing. Been there myself. But school staff are not there solely to look after your child till it's convenient for you to take over. Hire a nanny or au pair if you have very specific childcare needs.

Absolutely agree.

TheWayTheLightFalls · 29/11/2022 06:07

I agree with you OP - even if these things aren't childcare (they are, in my book), circumstances are such that the school will probably know well before - it's highly unlikely that the teacher leading things will be taken ill/have an emergency at 2.45pm on two consecutive weeks. So someone is relying on the parents just appearing at the drop of a hat to collect.

I'd look at either a more formal after school club (if the school does one?) or seeing if another club parent who you know is willing to informally be on standby with you - ie if the club cancels again one week you'll collect both kids until the parent can come to you/the park and take them, and the next time they will do the same for you.

I agree with a PP - some schools really operate as though there is a parent at home on standby 24/7. I moved DD from a school (nursery) like this to another which ime is more pragmatic. Huge difference.

Plumbear2 · 29/11/2022 06:16

TheWayTheLightFalls · 29/11/2022 06:07

I agree with you OP - even if these things aren't childcare (they are, in my book), circumstances are such that the school will probably know well before - it's highly unlikely that the teacher leading things will be taken ill/have an emergency at 2.45pm on two consecutive weeks. So someone is relying on the parents just appearing at the drop of a hat to collect.

I'd look at either a more formal after school club (if the school does one?) or seeing if another club parent who you know is willing to informally be on standby with you - ie if the club cancels again one week you'll collect both kids until the parent can come to you/the park and take them, and the next time they will do the same for you.

I agree with a PP - some schools really operate as though there is a parent at home on standby 24/7. I moved DD from a school (nursery) like this to another which ime is more pragmatic. Huge difference.

I disagree. Most schools operate on the fact that at the end of the school day parents or carers will pick up the children. School clubs are not carers so if you require that service you hire one . School and after school clubs are not childcare.

funtycucker · 29/11/2022 06:22

CurlyhairedAssassin · 28/11/2022 23:27

Perhaps 'enrichment' is only for kids with a SAHP. That's the message I am getting loud and clear from this school. Fucking ace.

I do wonder exactly what parents expect of schools. Their main role is to educate children. Our after school clubs finish at 4.15. That probably doesn't suit a lot of working parents either. Even if you did pull out all the stops and put an afterschool club on till 5.30pm you'd still have parents strolling in late not even apologising, or complaining that the price had gone up (yeah, that will be to cover the later time the caretaker and office staff have to stay there until). Or others would complain that they have to get the bus home as they don't have a car and so they can't get there till 6pm, so could you run the club till 6pm? Perhaps it's the actual childcare providers who need to be changing their policies/staffing so that they can pick up from the after school enrichment activities? Or perhaps the childcare providers need to be offering enrichment sesssions to take place at THEIR location?

I've discovered since working in a primary school that there are parents out there who seem to want school to bring their children up for them. It has been an eye opener. So different to when my own two were younger only 10 years ago. Then, parents would be waiting in the playground at the end of the day for the doors to open so they would be there to greet their child. Now it's the teacher stood waiting at the classroom door for the parents/grandparents/childminder to arrive. You get parents who don't want to come to take their child to the walk in centre to get checked out if they've had a fall in the playground. Or to come a bit earlier because their 5 year old child has vomited and is sitting pale, miserable and shivering outside the office. Our nursery staff have a half hour lunch break between morning and afternoon half-day sessions. This year has been terrible for parents thinking it's fine to stroll up the path 15 mins after their child's morning session has finished, without so much as an apology. It's so damned rude and thoughtless when staff are on their much-needed unpaid lunch breaks.

As for complaints about things like after school clubs, I've had parents complaining saying "All the sports club places were taken up within half an hour of being released on the payment app. I'm working at that time. I think you should release them when most people are home."

Ah right, so you want me to log back on at 6.30pm at home, after being home for only 45 mins, when I only get paid to 4.30pm anyway, JUST so that I can release the club places, for your convenience?

Schools try so so so hard with minimal resources. The staff are heroes, they really are. The children are precious to them and they treat them like their own and I do think some parents take advantage of this and struggle to see "education" as being separate from "care of your child."

I get the working parent thing. Been there myself. But school staff are not there solely to look after your child till it's convenient for you to take over. Hire a nanny or au pair if you have very specific childcare needs.

All of this!

funtycucker · 29/11/2022 06:24

HereBeFuckery · 29/11/2022 05:30

My actual point is getting buried under the pile on.

I am NOT annoyed that the club run by a teacher is (regularly) cancelled. That's their prerogative.

I AM annoyed that school give less than 30 mins notice of that cancellation every time they cancel. I don't understand how it's possible to ONLY EVER find out that late on that a teacher is sick. Do primaries not have cover lists?

As for 'things have changed in 10 years' no shit, eh? We have to work now. Do you think I LIKE not knowing what my kid's teacher looks like because I work full time and she does wrap around care? This rosy tinted 50s view that primaries have that the 'norm' is mum (usually) dropping the kid and picking them up each day needs to be updated. Sharpish.

They don't have cover lists for after school activity sessions because these are ran by teachers in their own time for no pay. They are under no obligation to do so. As for the notice, perhaps the teacher suddenly felt ill at the end of the day, or their own child was ill and they had to leave to collect them from childcare.

TheWayTheLightFalls · 29/11/2022 06:37

They don't have cover lists for after school activity sessions because these are ran by teachers in their own time for no pay. They are under no obligation to do so.

I do lots of things in my own time for no pay, in the guise of volunteering. By your logic can I just not turn up one day to take food to someone who’s housebound and relying on me that day?

I think the pay thing is neither here nor there - if you set up the expectation that you will do something then you either do it or give as much notice as you can if you need to renege.

The only (crappy) way around it I can see is framing it as “We offer Lego Club on a Monday 3.15-4pm. But this may be cancelled at zero notice due to staff capacity, so you must be available to collect your child if you’re informed on the day that the club isn’t running. This may be as late as 3.15pm” And then the only people who sign their kids up with be SAHPs. Ideal!

Plumbear2 · 29/11/2022 06:40

TheWayTheLightFalls · 29/11/2022 06:37

They don't have cover lists for after school activity sessions because these are ran by teachers in their own time for no pay. They are under no obligation to do so.

I do lots of things in my own time for no pay, in the guise of volunteering. By your logic can I just not turn up one day to take food to someone who’s housebound and relying on me that day?

I think the pay thing is neither here nor there - if you set up the expectation that you will do something then you either do it or give as much notice as you can if you need to renege.

The only (crappy) way around it I can see is framing it as “We offer Lego Club on a Monday 3.15-4pm. But this may be cancelled at zero notice due to staff capacity, so you must be available to collect your child if you’re informed on the day that the club isn’t running. This may be as late as 3.15pm” And then the only people who sign their kids up with be SAHPs. Ideal!

It's attitudes like yours that make teachers refuse to do clubs anymore.

Tomorrowisalatterday · 29/11/2022 06:42

Plumbear2 · 29/11/2022 06:40

It's attitudes like yours that make teachers refuse to do clubs anymore.

Show quote history

So it's ok to cancel with zero notice but not ok to tell parents that that happens?

funtycucker · 29/11/2022 06:43

TheWayTheLightFalls · 29/11/2022 06:37

They don't have cover lists for after school activity sessions because these are ran by teachers in their own time for no pay. They are under no obligation to do so.

I do lots of things in my own time for no pay, in the guise of volunteering. By your logic can I just not turn up one day to take food to someone who’s housebound and relying on me that day?

I think the pay thing is neither here nor there - if you set up the expectation that you will do something then you either do it or give as much notice as you can if you need to renege.

The only (crappy) way around it I can see is framing it as “We offer Lego Club on a Monday 3.15-4pm. But this may be cancelled at zero notice due to staff capacity, so you must be available to collect your child if you’re informed on the day that the club isn’t running. This may be as late as 3.15pm” And then the only people who sign their kids up with be SAHPs. Ideal!

My point is that if the person running the club is suddenly unavailable then they won't have cover as it's not a directed time activity. Should other staff have to drop things they have planned (work or personal) just because a parent says so? Do you have a list of cover for your volunteering?

funtycucker · 29/11/2022 06:44

Tomorrowisalatterday · 29/11/2022 06:42

So it's ok to cancel with zero notice but not ok to tell parents that that happens?

Show quote history

They did tell the parents though

Tomorrowisalatterday · 29/11/2022 06:48

The poster was criticizing a suggestion that the school advertises the clubs as "often cancelled at short notice" as oh this is why teachers are sad

TheWayTheLightFalls · 29/11/2022 06:48

It's attitudes like yours that make teachers refuse to do clubs anymore.

because they ought to be able to cancel on a whim? Because I should be thanking them effusively for running a club?

Either do something properly or don’t do it. Absolutely emergencies happen and I wouldn’t begrudge anyone that. But if no notice two weeks in a row turns out to be not an emergency but poor planning or a lack of commitment (we don’t know, you and I are both guessing) no, that’s not OK even if the teacher is doing it for free and in their own time. If that makes a teacher refuse to do a club I guess that’s problem solved then, since no one going to the club actually needs childcare…

funtycucker · 29/11/2022 06:53

TheWayTheLightFalls · 29/11/2022 06:48

It's attitudes like yours that make teachers refuse to do clubs anymore.

because they ought to be able to cancel on a whim? Because I should be thanking them effusively for running a club?

Either do something properly or don’t do it. Absolutely emergencies happen and I wouldn’t begrudge anyone that. But if no notice two weeks in a row turns out to be not an emergency but poor planning or a lack of commitment (we don’t know, you and I are both guessing) no, that’s not OK even if the teacher is doing it for free and in their own time. If that makes a teacher refuse to do a club I guess that’s problem solved then, since no one going to the club actually needs childcare…

I didn't realise you were supposed to get notice for being ill, your child being ill, an incident in school that needs dealing with or any of the many other things that could require the member of staff having to cancel the club. The staff running these sessions certainly don't cancel on a whim as you seem to think.

LolaSmiles · 29/11/2022 06:58

*My actual point is getting buried under the pile on.

I am NOT annoyed that the club run by a teacher is (regularly) cancelled. That's their prerogative.

I AM annoyed that school give less than 30 mins notice of that cancellation every time they cancel. I don't understand how it's possible to ONLY EVER find out that late on that a teacher is sick. Do primaries not have cover lists?
Primaries don't tend to have cover lists and they're also not obliged to arrange cover for clubs.
Plus, voluntary clubs don't have to be cancelled due to sickness. The teacher might have their own children who are poorly or their own child's arrangements that's fallen through, or needed to get a medical or dental appointment, or any other reason why they aren't available to run a club that is not in their directed time.

Ideally they should give more notice than 30minutes, though if you aren't using it as childcare and you know the club is regularly cancelled at short notice surely you'd have appropriate childcare in place?

TheWayTheLightFalls · 29/11/2022 07:02

I didn't realise you were supposed to get notice for being ill, your child being ill, an incident in school that needs dealing with or any of the many other things that could require the member of staff having to cancel the club. The staff running these sessions certainly don't cancel on a whim as you seem to think.

I addressed this in my post - “if no notice two weeks in a row turns out to be not an emergency but poor planning or a lack of commitment (we don’t know, you and I are both guessing)…”

Lots of things can happen which mean activities in school are cancelled for a good reason. What I take issue with is the previous poster’s insinuation that because these clubs are unpaid, the organisers have less obligation somehow. It’s quite a short road from there to “Nah, not today.”

Original poster

HereBeFuckery · 29/11/2022 07:04

@Plumbear2 I know that they wouldn't have a cover list for clubs, I'm not hard of thinking. The frequency with which clubs are cancelled suggests it's not just the odd emergency 'had to leave at 2.45 unexpectedly' but rather 'member of staff off sick that day'. Which of course is totally understandable.

But if staff call in sick for the day, why do parents not get notified that the club that teacher runs will then be cancelled? Are they genuinely so disorganised that no one realises 'oh, Miss B is off, that means her club which starts in 20 mins time will be cancelled, we hadn't made the connection'? Does not suggest robust administration, does it? Perhaps we need to look to move DD to a school where they do think outside the school gates.

When we have cover info assembled it includes notifications that clubs run by that member of staff are cancelled. The list goes out at 7.45-8am. Not 2.45pm. Parental notification is automated, goes out around 9.30am.

OP posts:

Sherrystrull · 29/11/2022 07:06

TheWayTheLightFalls · 29/11/2022 06:37

They don't have cover lists for after school activity sessions because these are ran by teachers in their own time for no pay. They are under no obligation to do so.

I do lots of things in my own time for no pay, in the guise of volunteering. By your logic can I just not turn up one day to take food to someone who’s housebound and relying on me that day?

I think the pay thing is neither here nor there - if you set up the expectation that you will do something then you either do it or give as much notice as you can if you need to renege.

The only (crappy) way around it I can see is framing it as “We offer Lego Club on a Monday 3.15-4pm. But this may be cancelled at zero notice due to staff capacity, so you must be available to collect your child if you’re informed on the day that the club isn’t running. This may be as late as 3.15pm” And then the only people who sign their kids up with be SAHPs. Ideal!

Volunteering is a choice.

Goodwill is very low in schools.

LolaSmiles · 29/11/2022 07:08

Perhaps we need to look to move DD to a school where they do think outside the school gates.
Then move your child. If having reliable after school clubs is an important thing to you that you'd come out with nonsense like this, then just do it.

I had sympathy on the 30 minutes notice for what it's worth but if you're going to jump from club regularly cancelled to we should move out child because the school is obviously terribly run, just look for another school.