Londoner? ULEZ expansion - wrong time?

[GrubzUp]

I like Sadiq Khan, in general I applaud green initiatives.

However it's been announced today that the original inner London low emission zone is to be expanded into outer London - meaning that if you have an older, more polluting vehicle it will cost you £12.50 every time you drive it anywhere in London (inside the M25 I think).

I live in outer London. There are a LOT of older, non ULEZ compliant vehicles on the road round here. At the moment, people don't need to be compliant for local trips, because unless they're heading inside the North / South Circular Rd, they are fine in their older cars.

I look out in the street and see my neighbours' cars: the people who tend to drive older vehicles are the young, the old, the disabled and the poor.

AIBU to say that hitting them with a big new tax for driving anywhere in the middle of a cost of living crisis is the WRONG time? If they can't afford a newer model they certainly can't afford to pay £12 every time they take it off the drive. I feel bad for these people. How are they going to afford it?

Note that public transport here is not what it is in inner London, you can't just "jump on the tube".

Well good for u that u can save up enough money to afford the high prices, not everyone can. I have been putting money aside incase it went ahead, I still need another 2yrs. I only have £250 month spare after mortgage and bills which are at bare basics no expensive phone or sky package. I have to feed myself from that too.

Thanks, that made me laugh and I needed it!

So much this
and so glad to see someone - you and others on this thread - finally saying this. I've started threads about these problems before but thought maybe they were too London centric as either no one cared or we got told some crap about how poor people would benefit.

the buses are almost unusable now. First it was the cycle lane problem, now this problem of LTNs. Only the perfectly able bodied are welcome in London now.

I think people just dont understand how 'good' air quality is. Im not sure where the narrative has come from that its awful, its vastly vastly improved over the decades.

I havent bought a replacement car. My parents did.

Not sure why you're being so defensive

Oh sorry I read that wrong, im just pissed off at the moment about the whole decision. I could of done with the mayor compeoaming and saying in 2024 instead to factor in the fact prices are higher thats all

Well I agree, and I dont think there is a need for it. People are just parroting the narrative about air pollution, as someone says, Biggin Hill et all really dont have a problem with this.

"Pollution" is so many different things, that's the problem, even when we're talking about local emissions rather than CO2. Lead is more or less gone thank god, and lots of the larger particulates from coal and industry which used to kill people in enormous numbers. So yes we've made huge progress.

But the specific particulates and nitrogen oxides from diesel are still really damaging, and there's just so many cars on the road. Even if they all go electric the brake dust is still going to make a trip down Oxford Street a health hazard.

I didn’t vote for Khan at the last election, because we were impacted by the extension to the South Circular. Thanks to everyone who did vote for him, we had to sell 3 cars and buy 2 new ones. It cost us about £20k. So I’m afraid I struggle to find any sympathy for people a bit further out who are now getting caught up in it. He’s been absolutely crystal clear for years that this is what he planned. And that’s what people voted for.

And just for the avoidance of doubt - I can’t just jump on a tube in Blackheath either.

No, they are unreliable, and if you need to get to the station to catch a train (into central London for work) then you end up missing it. Poor Biggin Hill has about 4 buses a day to the station. Everyone drives round there, but I would imagine the airport is a bigger polluter.

Everyone I know is instilling a wood burning stove & I know a few who burn whatever they find. I wonder what that will do to the environment!

If you want to drive everywhere, move to the countryside. Cities can't support this many drivers

That's a bit naive, not everywhere in London is super connected & you often do need a car particularly if you are less mobile.

They're pretty onerous if you have to buy a new car.

What about the environmental impact of scrapping loads of cars, and manufacturing/shipping all the new ones? Mining the minerals needed for the batteries, which have a limited lifespan and then need to be disposed of?

I agree with everyone else re the LTN’s. Where they’ve been imposed where I am (Lewisham/Blackheath) the roads are absolutely grid locked 8-10 then 3-5. I stopped going to the gym a mile away in the morning because a journey that used to take 15-20 mins started taking 1.5hrs. Sitting in a traffic jam, with stationary buses/vans/lorries pumping out fumes.

I swapped a 3.2 litre petrol car, for a 3.5 litre. Is that actually improving air quality? My ‘filthy’ 3.2 litre got sold to someone in Bristol.

Glasgow, Dundee, Edinburgh and Aberdeen are introducing a similar scheme from 2023. Residents have another year to change to a compliant vehicle IIRC.

TfL is the stuff of dreams if you ask me. I live in a suburb 7 miles from the city centre and we have an unreliable, expensive bus service that nobody can figure out and two trains an hour. One an hour on Sundays. There's a tiny underground rail service that stops ridiculously early in the evening. There are no swipe your credit card and go facilities. I would use public transport more often if there was more of it.

This!!!

The LTN’s have definitely improved traffic/air quality if you live on one of the streets you can no longer drive down. Those with the £1m+ houses. They are all for them. Unlucky for you, if you & your kids live in a flat on the south circular though. You’re now living surrounded by grid locked traffic and trying to get about on buses that don’t move for an hour.

But of course Lewisham council have raised £11m in LTN related fines, so they think they’re fab. Not that you’d know it from local services.

I’m entitled to the scrapage scheme (if it’s the same as last time) which makes me laugh. £2000 off a compliant car does not make it affordable.

My area will be within it and there is no issue with pollution levels. Inside the zone by one friend the levels are a problem, and haven’t changed and another area within the zone has seen slightly raised levels.

It particularly annoys me as the evidence is it’s not working.

Charge every damn car if you want to make a difference. Even if they are flashy and new. Make EVERYONE consider if they actually need to make that journey. Not just the poorest car owners. That might actually make a difference and drive down unnecessary journeys. As it is most people just switch cars. Sell the non compliant on and carry on stuffing the roads up for tiny journeys.

I calculated my car’s impact and made an environmental decision that scraping it wasn’t helpful. Driving as little as possible and not scraping a car that had similar emissions to many cars allowed on the road was not helping. Frankly also, I could pay £12.50 many times a month before it became worthwhile to get a loan on a new car

A decision pushed through against overwhelming opposition, including even 'green' boroughs like Sutton.

A decision pushed through by an arrogant mayor who is chauffeured in a gas-guzzling Range Rover in a convoy of vehicles.

A decision that impacts the day to day lives of residents and businesses in adjoining counties that do not have a democratic voice.

A decision about who can use the PUBLIC highway, which every driver contributes towards in vehicle tax and fuel duty.

A decision that disregards existing public services such a healthcare which do not follow borough/GLA boundaries.

A decision which discriminates against those who cannot afford to replace their vehicles, and cannot afford £12.50 a DAY to go about their established routines - work, school, shopping, hospital visits etc etc

A decision that pushes displaced polluting vehicles onto non-London roads.

How can this possibly be LEGAL?

Also- a neighbouring council are building an huge huge incinerator on my doorstep. Living under a plume that is fired by the waste of most of North and West London I don’t give a shit if car emissions go up or down a few %. The incinerator is overwhelmingly the scary thing in the air.