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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are we morally obliged to work ?

611 replies

Justthisonce12 · 17/11/2022 11:55

630,000 economically inactive people in the UK not claiming benefits. Early retiree’s I guess.

Hunt plans to tackle this and encourage work force participation to allow businesses to grow. ie cheap labour I presume ? But also preventing a brain drain.

Will be interesting to see how he plans to address this.

OP posts:
MarshaBradyo · 17/11/2022 13:26

Haffiana · 17/11/2022 13:21

Amazing. They kicked out all those tax-paying forriners who were here stealing our jobs and - o dear, too many jobs unfilled now, and no tax income from them anymore.

You tolerated this, so your children will be next.

nice lyrics 😂

HeraldicBlazoning · 17/11/2022 13:28

Haven't worked full time for 20 years. Work part time self-employed, pay a little NI and income tax but not much. This is balanced by DH who pays shitloads.

Not feeling guilty in the slightest.

Elphame · 17/11/2022 13:28

I guess I fall into this category. I'm still 10 years off my state pension.

It would have to be a very large solid 24ct gold carrot to get me back into the paid workforce again.

Dreamwhisper · 17/11/2022 13:28

EndlessRain · 17/11/2022 12:01

Well, some people need to work to support the system. And those who can't work. That's the way even the most basic societies work.

Preumsably though, people who have retired have done a fair bit of work and are (again presumably) supporting themselves in their choices. Also working to support a scoiety doesn't necessarily mean paid work.

It's a tough one.

It's not really tough though because the vast majority of people will work. Either they need to so will do minimum wage jobs, or they will want to because their earning potential and career goals are high.

This stuff from Hunt is just pure ideological crap. They want a return to the Victorian era where poorer people accepted that they had to essentially give their lives away to the grind in order to survive.

Emmawashyourchildren · 17/11/2022 13:30

SerendipityJane · 17/11/2022 13:02

Unless someone has found a way of buying shit without paying tax on it, or without the people you buy it from and who made it paying taxes (and so on) then nobody in the UK can possibly "economically inactive" and Jeremy Hunt is a stupid cunt.

Buy a bus ticket to your UC interview ? Then you, my friend, are economically active.

Eloquently put 😆

healthadvice123 · 17/11/2022 13:30

Anyone who has retired early etc will still be paying tax if they get enough pension etc to live on , plus we pay tax in more ways that just wages
But this isn't who the work coaches are aimed at , oP thread is a little misleading really

TollgateDebs · 17/11/2022 13:31

Hunt wants functioning, productive, skilled people back, as it is affecting UK PLC and politicians really should be focusing on the real reasons that those in demand choose not to be wage slaves, when they can support themselves happily outside of the workplace! Many employers don't want to pay them what their worth and, in real terms, wages are well down on what they should be. Employees are too often referred to as head count and thought of that way. Employers talk about retiring like most of us have a choice and we don't, but if we did, what would you do? I've seen one company replace each retiree with an apprentice and then moan they can't do the job, as there is no one to train them, so you get the picture of what is driving some employers, which is profit! Me, if I could, I'd be off and doing where I felt valued and my full NI history means I pay in for something I've already qualified fully for and can't claim for 6 years, having worked in an era where private pensions didn't always get offered, companies went pop and took your money with them and then not having money to pay for the far future, when I just had enought to pay for the day!! It is only Covid that has really pushed the fast forward button on more flexible ways of working. Being a Carer is all consuming and the lack of any respite or help is frankly a national disgrace, if they don't do this job, then who does and is JH saying this is not a real job then? We've got disabled individuals stuck in their homes, often with chronic accessibility issues and what does JH think they can do and what employers would he suggest take them on, or are their roles in parliament and the civil service being made ready for them? Our parliamentarians, all of them, allowed this situation to grow like topsy and have allowed the world of work to become so squeeky tight on headcount that there is no one to supervise in many instances, no one to train and no time for someone who can't hit the ground running. Many of those retired support our communities as volunteer for all the roles that are no longer funded, mind their grandchildren, and are so vital to our society, is he suggesting they go work in Lidl and then who picks up the knock on of their actions? I work in the employability sector and a real issue is whether that individual can do anything that is valued anymore? Community volunteering requires funding and support and everyone wants this, but no one wants to fund the infrastructure. Perhaps National Service would be an answer and would certainly mandate compulsory education, work on fitness, language skills and even give those involved a skill that society would value; other countries they do this, so why not us? I agree that many would rather not work and there is a large group that should, but the way we house people (in rural areas totally cut off from where there is the demand for an unskilled workforce), where rents run at 60% of average earnings, then factor in the bills and you would struggle to stay above zero, means many are disincentivised,especially when council tax and lack of access to things like free schools meals and prescriptions (to name but a few) disappear too. We need to properly invest in schools from day one, get parents back into education and make their benefits mandatory on attendance at programmes that they might not want, but really would help them in so many ways, alongside how this would translate to future generations. We should definitely make zero hour contracts illegal (they are not the same as bank, or temp) and make childcare part of schooling from age 3, so no excuse for parents not to work. Other issues, I have people who've been waiting a year for a scan for a suspected stroke and now have lost the use of their legs, dental care causing blood infections as 3 year local waiting list for NHS dentistry, so a lack of care for a tooth, is now a health issue. Sports and leisure decimated and yet we need to keep all of our population healthy and with access to areas to help them keep well, as the well can work and not make leisure and sport something that only those with money can do. Don't get me started on the lack of resilience, mental health.... Hybrid working will help but that's for those with skills that match the work, too many have little or no value to employers and we have failed to ensure we train for tomorrow and instead we've relied on importing for today! Sorry for the rant and brain dump and sometimes repeating myself, but I sit round tables where practitioners know what is needed and are never listened to; this is such a complex societal issue. I get frustrated that for want of some common sense, a united sense of contributing to our society to make it better and approaching those who could, but don't work, with realistic practical interventions and mandatory participation in 'real' valuable training, that what we have is simply the tip of the economically inactive iceberg. Oh, by the way, Job Coach don't coach, they ensure that the person in front of them complies, and DWP funded programmes are really not working effectively either, but that's another story for another day and like so much, you get a good 'un and then you get one that ticks the boxes.

healthadvice123 · 17/11/2022 13:31

@HeraldicBlazoning but your not claiming UC either I guess

Dreamwhisper · 17/11/2022 13:32

It's also so fucking stupid anyway. 630k people? Out of a population of 70 odd million? Just leave them be. If they're supporting themselves then they are already contributing economically by spending their money.

Supersimkin2 · 17/11/2022 13:33

No one in UK is or could be economically inactive. Everyone pays tax - Mars bars are taxed to the max, for instance.

Tories after free money again. You don’t say.

Livinginanotherworld · 17/11/2022 13:33

Dontaskdontget · 17/11/2022 12:30

This is an interesting conversation. We pay £100000+ in income tax a year, and we have private healthcare, private dentists, private school etc. Certainly never had any help paying for opticians! I use council bin collection but not much else. Don’t even have streetlights on my road. Not everyone is a getting out more than they put in, some you could say are being ripped off funding services for others over which they have no control.

Private health care won’t help you if you are in a car accident and need an ambulance and A&E, plus you still need to call the police if you are getting robbed or attacked. Libraries, roads, rubbish collection, public services. Will you call a private fire engine if your house is on fire ?

KnottyKnitting · 17/11/2022 13:33

DH and I are early retirees. Professional level jobs and live on savings. We do not claim any benefits and have more than enough savings to keep us going in our life style for many years without needing any form of state pension etc.

Absofuckinglutely no way I am going to be forced to take a low paid job. I was a teacher so no way am going back to that with education the shit show it is now.

Thatsasmashingblouseyouvegoton · 17/11/2022 13:35

Those 630k are claiming UC

It doesn't apply to people retiring early and living off savings

Fairyliz · 17/11/2022 13:35

ComtesseDeSpair · 17/11/2022 12:05

I think we’re morally obliged to provide for ourselves financially if we can. I think we have a moral obligation, if we expect to benefit from the NHS, the education system, and the welfare state generally, to contribute via taxation if we can or via other methods if we cannot.

I think there are a lot of early retirees who think or feel as though they’ve earned their keep and thus the right to sit back and claim their pension, when the reality is that the tax and NI they paid during their lifetimes didn’t even cover the services they and their family used, let alone decades of a state pension. Which isn’t an attitude I’ve much time for.

But if you are an early retiree you can’t claim your state pension. You can usually claim your company pension that you have paid into but your payout will be reduced.
So these people aren’t costing the government anything, I should know I’m one of them.

healthadvice123 · 17/11/2022 13:36

@TollgateDebs well said
When i got made redundant and applied for UC i thought they were going go help
Me find a job , brush up my CV etc yet not the case,
I have several younger wider family members now on UC who really could work with the right support and also life skills
If left they will still be on benefits in 10/20 years but really could work with the right help

healthadvice123 · 17/11/2022 13:37

@Thatsasmashingblouseyouvegoton that been posted but no one is taking any notice

Katypp · 17/11/2022 13:38

I suspect the majority of early retirees are ex public sector, something which is not mentioned in pay demands. My neighbour on one side (teacher) retired at 55 and on the other side (police) retired at 53. My parents' neighbour (nurse) retired at 55.

RobertaFirmino · 17/11/2022 13:40

these people aren’t costing the government anything

They are also leaving jobs free for people who would otherwise need to claim benefits.

miceonabranch · 17/11/2022 13:40

I worked for just over 30 years then had a mental breakdown and ongoing depression. I'm financially independent and don't claim any benefits. I do casual work - and pay tax - but couldn't manage a regular job as I'm not well enough. I'm also a carer for ds2 who's autistic. He doesn't get any benefits either. I figure I'm saving the country money by not claiming any disability benefits so I don't intend to return to the workplace. There's no mental health care, so the government can go swivel as far as I'm concerned.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 17/11/2022 13:40

Schlaar · 17/11/2022 12:14

I would love a proper job! Could someone please point me in the direction of a decent job which allows me to work 9-2 only? Or work 9-2 in the office then make up the rest working from home? Thought not. How am I supposed to work when I have to pick up the kids from school and no employer will accommodate that?

I work in local government and I am allowed to do this. Today I will pop off to do the school run at 3.15, get home at 3.45/4ish, give the kids a snack and log back on until quarter to 6 when I'll take DS to football. I wfh most of the time but even on office days we're allowed to work around school times if we want to, so long as over the week we've done 36 hours. Part-time hours are also easy to negotiate if you'd rather not work full-time.

antelopevalley · 17/11/2022 13:40

Most early retirees I know have been self employed.

Pasc611 · 17/11/2022 13:44

Justthisonce12 · 17/11/2022 11:55

630,000 economically inactive people in the UK not claiming benefits. Early retiree’s I guess.

Hunt plans to tackle this and encourage work force participation to allow businesses to grow. ie cheap labour I presume ? But also preventing a brain drain.

Will be interesting to see how he plans to address this.

The government cannot enforce "participation" in people who are not receiving unemployment benefits or living off state means tested benefits. People who stop working and get by without living off the state can't be made to work.
Are people morally obliged to work? It depends if you have a Protestant work ethic. In many countries, the young men are proud if they don't have to work!

I don't think older people are "morally obliged to work", no. If you have already put in 40 years, fuck that. I've done 40 and am nowhere near retirement age, but I will do what I want, when I want. I don't live off the state. I do think you have a moral responsibility not to deliberately craft your life choices to live off the work of strangers. That's theft.

Dreamwhisper · 17/11/2022 13:44

@Schlaar I do sympathise with you massively. Since the pandemic I work from home now and work full time but have flexible arrangements so I could if needed do every single school run with no worries.

I do think there are more jobs like this these days but if you can't get one, well I was saying to my mum recently how lucky I feel as it takes the "grind" feeling out of working so much, and my work life balance is so vastly improved. In fact I had not worked full time since having DC as I hated the lack of work life balance, but these types of jobs do allow you to step closer to having the best of both worlds. I do think there are things other sectors where WFH isn't possible could change to make life easier for people too.

Babooshka1991 · 17/11/2022 13:45

Because taxing wages is the only way this govt know how to make money. I can’t afford bills and groceries now but still have to pay a third of my earnings in tax and NI.

ColdHandsHotHead · 17/11/2022 13:46

I've been retired 3 years and am actually thinking of going back to work. However I'm not sure an employer would want my disabilities or health problems. The last one didn't, I was quietly fired.

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