Are we morally obliged to work ?

[Justthisonce12]

630,000 economically inactive people in the UK not claiming benefits. Early retiree’s I guess.

Hunt plans to tackle this and encourage work force participation to allow businesses to grow. ie cheap labour I presume ? But also preventing a brain drain.

Will be interesting to see how he plans to address this.

He has a problem with people who don't work and don't claim benefits because we have a huge problem of not enough workers which is harming the economy

It’s also why it isn’t always necessarily true to talk about the “sacrifices” which women make in terms of putting their career second to their family. All the women I know who became SAHMs or went part-time did so as an absolute non-negotiable - even where their OH would have preferred to a) not have children or b) to have them in childcare and for her to work full time so the burden of being breadwinner didn’t fall on him.

But in terms of men outearning their female partners even well before they have children, I think that’s a systemic result of both a) women still being underrepresented in STEM and other occupations which offer huge progression and b) a lot of women actually starting off in their working life knowing that they’d probably like a family at some point and assuming that it will be their career which takes a backseat if they do, so investing in it less than men do right from the start. I’m still not sure how we adequately address either.

We know that Hunt is concerned about the shrinking workforce and the number of 'economically inactive' people (stupid term) because he's said as much. We have a labour shortage and so naturally he would prefer people who could work but choose not to because they can financially support themselves without doing so to be back in the workplace. But obviously he can't just make them.

What stats are you referring to? Where from?

There loads of studies

www.vox.com/2018/2/19/17018380/gender-wage-gap-childcare-penalty

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/genderpaygapintheuk/2021

www.familyandchildcaretrust.org/new-research-highlights-impact-part-time-work-gender-pay-gap

www.forbes.com/sites/hollycorbett/2022/09/08/mothers-equal-pay-day-2022-how-the-pay-gap-impacts-families/?sh=42c3ef86fc1f

www.nytimes.com/2017/05/13/upshot/the-gender-pay-gap-is-largely-because-of-motherhood.html

I'm in this category, but I'm 65 and work part time. No intention doing more.

The first claims that the gender pay gap is still large and relates to fertility (as I said earlier some employers actively avoid employing women of childbearing age), it also uses a report from the U.S and incomplete data from UK councils who also are government departments.

The ONS is a government department.

And the last 3 are referring to life in other countries, mainly the U.S.

@Battyfumworts

Ok

You find me stats that prove me wrong then.

Or that agree with you and most men are earning double what their female ohs are pre kids

There is a difference between what women are PAID and what they choose to EARN.

Men and women are PAID comparably in most jobs. Women tend to EARN less because they choose lower-paid occupations, and/or voluntarily take time out of the workforce for personal reasons.

There's no standing to complain about the latter; no one is forced to have kids or make other lifestyle choices that necessitate dropping work. Childfree women who don't take large gaps generally are economically equal to men who don't take gaps.

The notion of "having it all" was always absurd. There are tradeoffs financial, career, social, etc. to every lifestyle choice. Presumably the joy of having children outweighs the resulting economic hardships.

A lovely lady caller on lbc today with James o Brien summed it up : she was tired of the rat race and managing people , so it was early retirement and having time for herself
She felt guilty, but it sounds as if she worked for years and had just had enough of it all
Working is hard these days ; it's long hours and your not appreciated at all
Anyone getting out of it , I don't blame them at all

@healthadvice123 Did you know, that the employment and training teams, funded by housing associations, are more successful in helping people into work than many of the 'hyped' programmes running with funding from the DWP and counting on referrals from Job Centres. If anyone on this thread, or you know of anyone, that is living in a property managed by a housing association, then please encourage them to ring in and see what help can be given. I am an Employment and Training Officer, for a large housing association, and cover the full range of support from producing a CV from scratch (I've been a recruiter, worked in multiple industries, taught in schools, colleges and universities....) so know what is needed to get results, to conducting mock interview, skills audits, helping with upskilling and access to accredited and funded courses, apprenticeships, looking at sustainable work and even signposting to vacancies that are not easy to trip over; you name it, if it helps we will throw it into the mix of help we offer. We helped over 400 people into work last year and some had not worked for years, or were struggling to even get an interview, so please do ring if you are connected to a HA for your housing to see if they can help. Many HAs also offer money advice and benefits and well-being and we brought in an additional £2.5m in benefits for our customers last year! There's a great deal of help out there and we bang our heads in frustration at how often we try to get Job Centres to look beyond their own doorstep!

But the trade off and expectation is always that the woman not the man chooses the lower paid career and the women who is expected to do childcare - even when she is the higher earner your social circle will have an expectation that it's you not the husband who reduces work

career choice is society and education influenced

and there is evidence that the salary follows the sex mix - if a job becomes more followed by men it experiences a salary uplift

They can't force people to work. If people can fund themselves without working, who is anyone to tell them to go to work!?

The answer isn't getting early retirees back to work.

The answer is investing in sectors where the UK can prosper in the future. Renewables. Innovation. Become more self sufficient.

Let's not waste time on the short term, minor issues. Let's spend time trying to solve the huge problems of the future.

The problem is, we never learn. We always react rather than plan ahead and strategically grow. Wars, disease, we should have plans, they aren't unforeseen events. We know we don't do well when the world's food is restricted, so rather than sit around and wait for it to happen again, let's kickstart our own provision.

Not in my circles. I don't know who is promulgating these "expectations" but women need to learn to ignore them. Many already do.

My manager earns 150k, her husband is SAHP to their three kids. My best friend is the breadwinner on about 100k, her husband has never worked (they are in late 50s) other than sell on eBay, do odd jobs, etc. - he was SAHP to their three kids who now are young adults. Most of my young female relatives are childfree by choice and avidly pursuing career mobility; they aren't planning their lives around being SAHP or expecting that a man will be supporting them in future.

Most of my other friends are in STEM fields or health care; they didn't choose traditionally women's occupations, and many outearn their partners and SOs.

One of my friends (in her late 30ds) doesn’t work due to chronic illness. She is a SAHM to her 2 children and 2 stepchildren (aged 4-14).

A lot of these early retirees are also our childcare options.

Perhaps if they subsidised childcare better they'd see more workers.

Whilst that may be the case for you, I think it's rare. I literally know no couples where the woman earns more once they've had kids.

Having kids doesn't affect income unless one steps out of the workplace. Most of my friends took relatively short leaves (3-ish months) and resumed their high-earning roles. My manager didn't even take the full three months, for her last baby, though it was born during Covid so she was WFH.

I can’t think of anything that a politician could say to entice me to work if I didn’t have to. I haven’t worked for 18 years and can’t legally on my visa. I do a little charity work and I craft and write. What business is it if the government’s whether I work or not, if not claiming benefits?

You can stop twisting my words now, I never said most men earn double their female ohs pre kids

If you are referring to this..

“The reason many use the woman’s wage as a reference is because women are still often paid significantly less than men, so it would make more sense for the woman to give up work. Any many women are stuck in jobs that they can’t advance in. I think perhaps you are further ahead than many and don’t quite realise that.” I said significantly, not half/double.

And if you are referring to this..

“You see when referring to a specific set of circumstances, which I have, it does make more sense for the woman to give up work. Of course if the woman was earning double the man’s wage it would make more sense for him to give up work, but these circumstances aren’t as common.” Well, as I said, I was referring to a specific set of circumstances mentioned further up the thread, by another poster. I never said most.

Although there are a number of people on here claiming their DH’s earned double+ than them.

Seems you have deliberately ignore any valid points I have raised and focused on one area you have interpreted the way that suits you.

You don't see the expectation you don't look very hard

Just that little pause when the man asks for a day off for childcare that isn't present when a woman does

That eyebrow raise when a women says she is going back full time

That comment about how caring that young girl is - and her brother never recieve that comment

I don’t work.
I dont want to work.
I taught for 25yrs and retired at 50.
I love my lazy life. 😁
(No benefits - DH has nose to the grindstone)

According to the job centre yes you are- morally

I know a few who feel they have it all, me included. I don’t think having a job and little time for other things is part of having it all.

@Battyfumworts

Im not really sure what point you're making tbh.

You don't appear to want to accept that the gender pay gap doesn't exist pre kids.

My point in relation to yours was that yes, often women are paid less than men but that is mostly through choice. Same with lack of career progression.

It's not an obvious choice, it's one women mostly fall into and then can't get out of but no. I don't agree it makes sense for women to always be the ones giving up work and going part time. Regardless of how much more their ohs earn.

The short term benefits to not out weight the long term loses or the wider societal impacts and we should be doing more to help women stay in work

I'd quote you the stat which shows most women would rather work if affordable childcare options were available but I'm sure you wouldn't like it.