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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

CEO should resign and be charged with corporate manslaughter

129 replies

Istheworldreallydonefor · 16/11/2022 07:19

It’s time senior management event their pay or faced the consequences
.
Rochdale Boroughwide Housing CEO must face the music.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-63641438

AIBU - you think CEO’s should not face the music

AINBU - they should be charged

OP posts:
AmeliaEarhart · 16/11/2022 15:33

I’ve found external pictures of the estate online. Looks like typical, 1960s/70s low-rise social housing with external walkways and low ceilings. Retrofitted UPVC windows too, which are a bastard for causing condensation in my experience.

PearlclutchersInc · 16/11/2022 15:33

gogohmm · 16/11/2022 07:56

It's a very complex situation and I don't think corporate manslaughter charges for the ceo is productive at all, he would have had no part in the decision making in this case nor even known about it most likely.

What is needed is a fundamental review of procedures in housing including crucially teaching tenants how to prevent mould, how to clean mould that appears and when to bring in professional cleaners. I say this as someone who had to manage a flat riddled with mould that had no mould at all when the tenants got the keys (I do not know if this was the case in the tragic situation in the news) - a combination of severe overcrowding (stuff piled up against every wall, drying washing inside everywhere, failing to use the extractor fan in the bathroom and not opening windows to ventilate were the reasons according the the expert we called it. Once mould starts it is very difficult to control unless strong chemicals are used, not ideal with small children

Because accountability stops with management. They're responsible for failed policy and budget. Is it so hard to understand?

bellac11 · 16/11/2022 15:34

OldPosterNewUsername · 16/11/2022 15:31

I know they are crap and loud, we had an "inside bathroom" (love this phrase BTW - you could be an estate agent) in our previous home.

They're better than nothing though to be fair

Yes, you need to imagine me flicking through Rightmove (my hobby) at properties I would never be able to buy saying to myself 'nope, its got an inside bathroom'.

bellac11 · 16/11/2022 15:35

Yes this, I have read about this, it has put me right off. We have cavity walls and live at the coast and thats the worst place to put cavity wall insulation apparently, seaside homes are made to breathe.

Newlifestartingatlast · 16/11/2022 15:36

HMSSophia · 16/11/2022 07:41

And whose responsibility is it to make sure these ARE in place, IMPLEMENTED, and ACTED on?

There’s a difference here in responsibility vs accountability

procedures, reporting structures etc are about defining who has responsibility to carry out actions to prevent this sort of thing. This could be inspectors, procedure and policies writers, accountants etc

but ultimate ACCOUNTABILITY stops with the COE. That’s the point of a COE - he is accountability for the culture, ensuring his senior board are supported and directed to ensure policies, training , procedures are followed. That should be done with smart metrics etc . and a CEOs own behaviour reflecting the culture he expects his board to follow.

imho all over civil service people don’t understand there’s a difference between responsibility vs accountability. I’ve had mental health team supporting my ex tell me “we’re all accountable”. Bollocks. They are all responsible for their task. But You must only have one single person of accountability to oversee those responsibilities . And if you don’t then you merely have no accountability. And then shit happens like this.

whether the CEO deserves jail is a debatable point in a court to say did he break the law in his lack of accountability. Unless you have clear policies for how a CEO behaves in law it is tricky. I worked in Pharma industry and I can tell you there is plenty of stuff a CEO and “Qualified Person” (the ultimate person accountable for each batch release to public), could go to jail on based on Regulatory requirement by medicines agencies right around the world.

But are there same regulations for CEOs of councils . Doubt it cos successive government aren’t interested in defining such laws. Which is why they can get away with it.

JenniferBooth · 16/11/2022 15:37

Yep we had those windows retro fitted in 2004 And they have window restrictors on them. Cant open them properly All except for one HA was "ooh we need to put a restrictor on that one too"
Me. No. Its the only window i can open properly.

WhiteFire · 16/11/2022 15:42

JenniferBooth · 16/11/2022 15:37

Yep we had those windows retro fitted in 2004 And they have window restrictors on them. Cant open them properly All except for one HA was "ooh we need to put a restrictor on that one too"
Me. No. Its the only window i can open properly.

Can you override the restrictor? That sounds a fire risk if you are unable to fully open any window.

OldPosterNewUsername · 16/11/2022 15:42

bellac11 · 16/11/2022 15:34

They're better than nothing though to be fair

Yes, you need to imagine me flicking through Rightmove (my hobby) at properties I would never be able to buy saying to myself 'nope, its got an inside bathroom'.

I love your style and if in the future I ever meet an estate agent telling me that a property has an "inside bathroom" I will know it is you!!

JenniferBooth · 16/11/2022 15:44

Yes i usually stick a pen in and flick it with that because you cant fit your finger in.

OldPosterNewUsername · 16/11/2022 15:47

WhiteFire · 16/11/2022 15:42

Can you override the restrictor? That sounds a fire risk if you are unable to fully open any window.

If it is the same as our windows which I think it might be you should be able to open it fully with a "special knack" or as my son did when he got fed up of the knack remove it completely by undoing a couple of screws.

Then obviously putting it somewhere you can't remember for later (like he did).

Only if there are no children left unattended in that room ever.

EsmaCannonball · 16/11/2022 15:59

There should at least be a criminal investigation to see if the CEO should be prosecuted. I'd like to see a dedicated corporate manslaughter unit set up to deal with cases like this and Grenfell Tower. There never seems to be any accountability. It seems to be the case that the higher up in an organisation you are, the more you are able to get away with, when really it should be the other way around.

OldPosterNewUsername · 16/11/2022 16:06

EsmaCannonball · 16/11/2022 15:59

There should at least be a criminal investigation to see if the CEO should be prosecuted. I'd like to see a dedicated corporate manslaughter unit set up to deal with cases like this and Grenfell Tower. There never seems to be any accountability. It seems to be the case that the higher up in an organisation you are, the more you are able to get away with, when really it should be the other way around.

I watched a documentary from 1984 about social housing and right at the end it talked about using cladding to improve tower blocks.

Then there were shots of cladding catching fire and the presenter said something like "lets hope we are not creating worse problems when we fix the existing problems".

Utterly chilling

balalake · 16/11/2022 16:08

I agree with the principle the OP is writing about.

I would start with Boris Johnson, who could be charged with 20,000 deaths by neglect, or at the very least a large number of public sector employees or those providing services under contract to the state.

OldPosterNewUsername · 16/11/2022 16:13

Apologies I have got two documentaries confused but this one specifically discusses cladding and fire risk @ 45 minutes

Honeysuckle16 · 16/11/2022 16:47

It's a very complex situation and I don't think corporate manslaughter charges for the ceo is productive at all, he would have had no part in the decision making in this case nor even known about it most likely.

Gogohmm, you don’t seem to know how organisations work. The buck stops at the top, and if the CEO didn’t know tenants were made unwell from substandard housing, then he wasn’t doing his job. Of course he had a part in decision-making. Ignoring an issue is making a decision to turn a blind eye. Until senior staff are held accountable, nothing will change.

antelopevalley · 16/11/2022 16:50

Gogohm also does not understand corporate manslaughter. The criminal law is about making sure top executives do not always blame people lower down. They set policies, if those policies mean people are put at risk of death then they are to blame. They do not need to know every single instance.

Istheworldreallydonefor · 16/11/2022 17:05

This reply has been deleted

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latetothefisting · 16/11/2022 17:33

LakieLady · 16/11/2022 08:33

I don't think this is the council though. The stakeholders appear to be employees and tenants, like some sort of co-operative or mutual society. Admittedly, I only had a quick gander at their website, but I could see no mention of the council or the housing corporation, so I don't think it's a housing association in the normal sense.

Maybe Rochdale generally is a hotbed of racism and bigotry.

came to say this - no idea why so many posters are going on about the CEO of the council or the issues councils are facing - this was a housing association. Nothing to do with the council at all....The CEO of Rochdale Boroughwide Housing Association and the CEO of Rochdale Borough Council are two completely different people who work for two completely different bodies...

Istheworldreallydonefor · 17/11/2022 06:17

@Honeysuckle16 exactly

until there is accountability this will continue

OP posts:
DogInATent · 17/11/2022 08:01

latetothefisting · 16/11/2022 17:33

came to say this - no idea why so many posters are going on about the CEO of the council or the issues councils are facing - this was a housing association. Nothing to do with the council at all....The CEO of Rochdale Boroughwide Housing Association and the CEO of Rochdale Borough Council are two completely different people who work for two completely different bodies...

Because it's Rochdale, and the GeeBeebies viewers will overlook such details for any opportunity to make their ongoing point about the Council there.

ItsBritneyBitch45 · 20/11/2022 18:56

news.sky.com/story/amp/awaab-ishak-death-boss-at-housing-body-that-ran-home-where-boy-2-was-killed-by-mould-sacked-12750975

When the CEO apologised, he said he won’t be resigning however now due to pressure, the board has sacked him. It’s very telling that he didn’t even resign and had to be sacked but I’m happy to see this outcome. Whilst it’s not a charge of manslaughter, it’s something

Justellingthetruth · 20/11/2022 19:59

@ItsBritneyBitch45

yes its good

Quveas · 20/11/2022 21:22

ItsBritneyBitch45 · 20/11/2022 18:56

news.sky.com/story/amp/awaab-ishak-death-boss-at-housing-body-that-ran-home-where-boy-2-was-killed-by-mould-sacked-12750975

When the CEO apologised, he said he won’t be resigning however now due to pressure, the board has sacked him. It’s very telling that he didn’t even resign and had to be sacked but I’m happy to see this outcome. Whilst it’s not a charge of manslaughter, it’s something

I very much doubt that the version is true. They may have "dismissed" him, but I would lay bets that he's gone with a lovely package and pension. Whether people here like it or not, it is the government cuts and polices that are to blame here. Gove can protest as much as he likes - he is directly responsible for poor housing conditions in both the public and private sectors.

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