To ask you how you would deal with this?

[Catagonia]

I am at my wits end.

i have two girls. They are 8 and almost 5. They are generally good girls, well behaved and well mannered when they are in school etc. Very different personalities (8 is generally quite bookish and quiet, while 5ish is a bit of a tornado) but they are close and they get on well.

They share a bedroom by choice. Bunk beds. Bedtimes are a total and utter nightmare. The behaviour is absolutely dreadful. It’s like a switch flicks after 7pm.

They simply will. Not. Stay. In. Bed.

We go to their room, I read them a story each, they get into bed. The light is off but the hall light is on to let them read (8 is an avid reader, obv youngest can’t read yet) and also because they aren’t keen on the dark.

All seems settled and then chaos starts as soon as I leave. They are up, books/toys everywhere. Screaming, shouting, banging etc. we are up and down all evening. Returning them to bed. The minute we leave they are up again. Doesn’t matter how angry we get or consequences outlined etc.

I have been sitting for the past few weeks on the floor of their room until youngest falls asleep. This is the only way I can think of to get them to stay the fuck in bed (other than literally tying them to the bunk bed - perhaps a step too far…). Because they don’t give a single solitary fuck about how angry we get. Or any consequences. But this means I’m losing my evenings because they aren’t setting till gone 10, even with me in the room. Tossing and turning and whispering and asking me for drinks etc.

Last night I was getting really stressed out because I had a lot to do (as you do in an evening). So once I settled them (they seemed quiet and tired) I left them. Came back 15 mins later when I heard the usual riot, they had taken all the bed covers etc off the beds and were playing some game. So that was me sat there till half ten. Got nothing done. Cried.

The youngest goes absolutely off her fucking head at any attempt to remove her toys/books from her or put the light off. I am talking anger and screaming like she is being murdered, that would bring social services to the front door if a neighbour heard. She is incredibly belligerent. I really am at the end of my rope with her. She is bright and funny but a real wildcard and I really don’t know how to deal with her. She started school this year and her behaviour at home has been fairly atrocious since. I know she’s keeping her shit together all day and letting it all go at home but it’s so hard.

in the Christmas holidays, I am separating them. Putting eldest in a different bedroom (which she is excited about, youngest is not). But it won’t help - youngest will just be in and out of her room all night.

i feel like a complete fucking failure as a parent.

I have 7 and 5 year old boys. If I leave them before youngest is asleep then it's the same situation as you describe, chaos.
In the last week or 2 what I have started to do is tell the youngest that the eldest has been naughty and isn't getting a story..,, my eldest understands this and sees it as he is getting extra time up.
So I take the youngest in read him a story, put a music lullaby light on for 5 mins and lay beside him until he sleeps, this can take 15mins in total, we normally go into bed at 7 so I'm done by 7.15, then I read the eldest his story in the lounge and take in in tuck him in and put the music light on for him and leave, he is very good at putting himself to sleep..,,,
I get that playing it that one is in trouble isn't ideal but it works for me. Both get made to feel special

Separate bedrooms now.

Christmas is the wrong time to do it because if the excitement, family late nights, lack of routine etc.

Separate bedtimes, focus on a strict new regime that you and DH police really firmly until it is instilled. Tell them what the new routine is, emphasis on lovely story, cuddles, then night night, bed, sleep, no getting up.

Old school SuperNanny techniques.

Out of bed? Put back straight away without interaction or responding to drama and hoo ha.

No beggining, bargaining or wheedling in your part, just businesslike ‘back to bed’. Time after time after time. For 3-5 nights, probably.

Don’t give in because that just fuels their belief that they will get away with it for longer and strengthens their resolve not to comply.

If you’re sitting in the landing til 10.30 anyway you might as well make it a process that is part of the solution.

I had to sit with all five of mine for them to go to sleep, no talking, lights out after story, they'd have been up and down all night otherwise, especially the twins, it does get easier, or their dad would sit with them while I cooked dinner, it's a killer waiting for them to go to sleep when you're starving, it does pass eventually

Maybe one sleeps in the other room the next night if they play up at bedtime?

This might seem weird advice, but maybe just leave them to it? They either aren't tired yet or trying to get attention from you.

As long as they are safe in their room, let them get on with the banging and toys out etc. They'll eventually get tired or realise you aren't coming to shout at them, and they'll go to sleep. I understand how important that time without them is in the evenings, so my rule for my little one is as long as he's up in his room and not bothering me, let him be and he'll eventually fall asleep. That way I get my full time off in the evenings (which I've been using to go to bed early recently...)

I think giving them a bit of control over bedtime helps sometimes. You're not saying to them you have to go to sleep at this time, you just have to be upstairs in your room at this time. It might take them hours to sleep the first few nights, but they'll soon catch on and just get on with it. Might be worth a try?

I'd separate them straightaway - and maybe get them a Bluetooth speaker in their rooms so you can put stories on for them to fall asleep to from your phone.

If you tell them that their behaviour will have consequences, do you actually follow up on them? Sorry might seem obvious but a lot of parents threaten but don't follow through and children know this.

Probably not realistic but could you put all books toys etc in a locked room and put soothing go to sleep music on with recorded stories so when they go to bed they are listening to that and not you and only have their teddies or whatever to go to sleep with they can have a toy back when they go to sleep nicely? +

Mine were the same when they shared a room. It was chaos. In the end I did separate bedtimes. The problem with punishments was they would blame each other and make more noise and that then led to resentment and arguing in the daytime too. Especially as neither do well with tiredness.

Now dds have their own rooms, if dd2 messes about the hallway light goes straight off. She can tantrum all she likes but I just remove the light bulb so no argument just her creating. It took a while but she learnt, if I do as I'm told I can have the light on and my teddies. Mess about they get removed until I behave properly at bedtime.

Don’t wait to separate them. Do that now if you can.

Thank you so much for the advice. I’ve been at work today so sorry for the delay.

Tonight, the small one goes to bed first. She is exhausted today so I am crossing my fingers that it works…

OP, you’re right: your job is to get them ready for sleep. If they then resist & dick about then that’s not your fault - they’ve found something to challenge you over.

It sounds a bit like the littlest is having a hard time settling at school. Can you make opportunity for her to really let off steam and afterward to cuddle up with you for something soothing? Well clear if bedtime etc. Dunno - after school trampolining then home for a floor picnic and film?

I’d suggest:

1. Separate them. If the elder one is happy but the younger isn’t, then have parent in the unhappy ones room for “an extra story”. Praise both.
2. Whichever one goes into the others room gets returned to own bed, and you stay to settle the one who remained in own bed.
3. The bed-moving one will no doubt be v cross at this, so if/when she leaves her room then your partner returns her to bed, again and again and again.
4. Have a big box handy and whatever toys are played with, thrown, etc, get put into the box and onto the landing (ie not in the room).
5. Consequences of “no, sorry I’ve too much to do today because I didn’t get to do it after you were in bed”, or “no, you’ll be far too tired for that because you stayed up so late yesterday” might work better than straight up punishments for messing about.

Any chance you could set up the eldest's bedroom this weekend?

Or do you need furniture etc?

No I’ll need to order her a new bed. But I’ll need to do it before the Christmas hols because this can’t go on.

5 has struggled to settle without her sister. I’m on her floor. We came up at 7.15. She was furious her sister got to stay up. She is nearly asleep now but she’s very sad and wobbly about it.

Still. 8.30pm is a massive improvement.

My DD shared as children. We didn't have a spare bedroom.

I'd suggest starting on Friday night leave them to get on with it and then go in and carry on as normal the next morning. Maybe get them up extra early to tidy up the mess. Rinse and repeat.

I'd also suggest reducing the number of toys in there if you can so there's less to trash and get out when they should be in bed.

Glad its worked ok tonight. Your 5 year old needs to understand that her sister is older so gets to stay up later.
You put youngest to bed and wait in with her while she falls asleep. Once you have them in separate rooms your dh can then take your eldest up an hour later if you are still sat with youngest.
Do they stay asleep once they've gone to sleep?
Sort out the separate rooms as a matter of urgency

Yes usually once they are asleep that’s them for the night. Occasionally 5 will appear in our room, but usually just climbs in beside me and goes back to sleep. I don’t mind that. In fact I quite enjoy snuggling with her then. I know I’m in borrowed time with that.

How did it go last night? Every night will get easier if you stick with the routine..... 😊