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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask you how you would deal with this?

69 replies

Catagonia · 09/11/2022 07:40

I am at my wits end.

i have two girls. They are 8 and almost 5. They are generally good girls, well behaved and well mannered when they are in school etc. Very different personalities (8 is generally quite bookish and quiet, while 5ish is a bit of a tornado) but they are close and they get on well.

They share a bedroom by choice. Bunk beds. Bedtimes are a total and utter nightmare. The behaviour is absolutely dreadful. It’s like a switch flicks after 7pm.

They simply will. Not. Stay. In. Bed.

We go to their room, I read them a story each, they get into bed. The light is off but the hall light is on to let them read (8 is an avid reader, obv youngest can’t read yet) and also because they aren’t keen on the dark.

All seems settled and then chaos starts as soon as I leave. They are up, books/toys everywhere. Screaming, shouting, banging etc. we are up and down all evening. Returning them to bed. The minute we leave they are up again. Doesn’t matter how angry we get or consequences outlined etc.

I have been sitting for the past few weeks on the floor of their room until youngest falls asleep. This is the only way I can think of to get them to stay the fuck in bed (other than literally tying them to the bunk bed - perhaps a step too far…). Because they don’t give a single solitary fuck about how angry we get. Or any consequences. But this means I’m losing my evenings because they aren’t setting till gone 10, even with me in the room. Tossing and turning and whispering and asking me for drinks etc.

Last night I was getting really stressed out because I had a lot to do (as you do in an evening). So once I settled them (they seemed quiet and tired) I left them. Came back 15 mins later when I heard the usual riot, they had taken all the bed covers etc off the beds and were playing some game. So that was me sat there till half ten. Got nothing done. Cried.

The youngest goes absolutely off her fucking head at any attempt to remove her toys/books from her or put the light off. I am talking anger and screaming like she is being murdered, that would bring social services to the front door if a neighbour heard. She is incredibly belligerent. I really am at the end of my rope with her. She is bright and funny but a real wildcard and I really don’t know how to deal with her. She started school this year and her behaviour at home has been fairly atrocious since. I know she’s keeping her shit together all day and letting it all go at home but it’s so hard.

in the Christmas holidays, I am separating them. Putting eldest in a different bedroom (which she is excited about, youngest is not). But it won’t help - youngest will just be in and out of her room all night.

i feel like a complete fucking failure as a parent.

OP posts:
Mardyface · 09/11/2022 08:08

We had this with a slightly smaller age gap.

They need separate bed times and the smaller one should not be dictating this! Make a huge deal about special bed time for each kid. I might even suggest the older has a sleepover or two while you do it.

The younger one needs to go to bed earlier than she does not if she's at school. Talk about it beforehand (not that it's earlier but that you're going to have special mummy + 5 year old time). Make it into special time alone with you or your H so that she looks forward to it. You know what she likes - a story, a game, whatever is calm and she likes. You need inner resolve because these whirlwind kids can sniff out weakness. But you are in charge.

Otherwise yeah separate the rooms if you can. Mine had to share because of space but if it's that chaotic it's a no brainer.

Cuddlywuddlies · 09/11/2022 08:09

You need to break the cycle. It’s all about control…and they know they have you broken.
your post asks what I would do?I would (and I would start this on a Fri night and it’s going to be tough!!)
Give them a lovely bedtime routine like you do and then either a…leave them to it. Let them mess the room, do whatever (as long as they are safe) leave them until they fall asleep, don’t interfere in any way shape or form because that’s what they want! They want attention from you and they are getting it. They will soon get fed up (this could take a few nights) as they are not gaining anything from it and they will be super tired to add to that.

OR you start bedtime routine as you have stated…and then do it supernanny style tend to them when they get up but DO NOT converse AT ALL. It should have the same effect as above?

canteatlovefood · 09/11/2022 08:15

I have a 4 and 8 year old. 4 year old goes to bed around 7.30/8 and 8 year old around 8.30/9.
I wouldn't let the younger one dictate having the same bedtime as the older one. 7 is far too early for an 8 year old to go to bed.
We've also never done the 'bedtime routine' thing. They brush their teeth, have some time in bed reading etc and then lights out and sleep. Sometimes straight to lights out if they're particularly tired.

Themadcatparade · 09/11/2022 08:18

Separate bed times, all the toys out of the room, and I’d be tempted to wake them up stupidly early in the mornings for the next week or so

I think a lot of the issue here is that they don’t seem to be bothered about the consequences and I’d be tempted to take a stronger approach to it. What a nightmare I had a friend who’s girls were like this for years!

Themadcatparade · 09/11/2022 08:20

@Cuddlywuddlies yes I agree I’d be going complete no conversing, no communication approach too it sounds like the attention is a game for them

Catagonia · 09/11/2022 08:22

Why though??

honest to god, they have attention danced on them all day long. They are loved and cared-for children.

OP posts:
Brefugee · 09/11/2022 08:23

You could do the supernanny thing when this happens, but just leave the room in a mess then get them up half an hour earlier and make them tidy it?

Mardyface · 09/11/2022 08:26

Catagonia · 09/11/2022 08:22

Why though??

honest to god, they have attention danced on them all day long. They are loved and cared-for children.

I don't think anyone thought they weren't! Sleeping is boring. That's what my youngest thinks. If the dynamic is anything like my family she is tormenting the 8 year old into thinking so too. Some special attention for just her may be the answer. Divide and conquer!

determinedtomakethiswork · 09/11/2022 08:27

They are old enough to watch Supernanny with you and understand how much better it is afterwards. She covers this a lot and it's very successful.

Elsanore · 09/11/2022 08:29

Separate bedrooms now, not after Christmas.

Little one goes to bed at 7 for story etc in her own room. Older one goes to bed after little one is asleep- in the separate room with her own story etc.

Make coming out of bedrooms after bedtime the crime of the century with big bollockings and follow through on punishments. Both parents police it for a while- demanding in short term but worth it if it pays off.

Wake them up earlier in morning so they are more tired at bedtime, if you can face it.

Madamecastafiore · 09/11/2022 08:29

Separate rooms and separate bed tones, you're giving power to the youngest one that she's not mature bough to handle and it's unfair the oldest should have her bedtime dictated by her younger sister.

Cuddlywuddlies · 09/11/2022 08:31

@Catagonia because they can, because they are children, because they love you, because they want more attention. 🤣There doesn’t have to be a major life defining reason as to why they want to get your attention (good or bad).
Unless…and only you know this…the attention they have “danced” on them all day is not “attention” yes you may be there physically, feeding them, sorting them etc etc but are you listening, playing, talking etc etc.
I’m not saying this is you but some parents think they are present with their children but when they look at it they are making dinner, sorting the house, watching tv etc etc IN THE PRESENCE of the children but they are not GIVING the children attention or involving them. There’s a difference.

Anyway that’s all beside the point. The main point is you need to break the cycle. It won’t be easy but it’s more than possible. Make a plan of action with your dh on board and stick to it no matter what.

NukaColaQuantum · 09/11/2022 08:36

It’s about the right time for the 8YO, very late for the 5YO.

My 6YO is asleep by 6:30-7pm, she also does breakfast and after school club though, because I work full time.

I would separate them now, no waiting, no fucking about, no discussion or negotiation.

NoSquirrels · 09/11/2022 08:40

Oldest downstairs with Daddy. Special 1-1 time, reading etc.

Youngest upstairs with you. Special 1-1 time, Calm app, listen to audiobook she can fall asleep to etc.

Absolute consistency on not giving in. Put oldest to bed in your room when it’s her bedtime if need be.

It’s a cycle and a slog to break it but only when they are separated can you really figure out what the exact issue is - does the littlest actually need nobody in with her to sleep? (Mine’s like that!) Or does she need music/audio/white noise? etc etc

rainbowstardrops · 09/11/2022 08:43

Your 8 year old is definitely old enough to reason with.
Have you asked her why she joins in with the shenanigans at bedtime? Discuss the whole situation with her? Maybe big up her 'responsibility' for being the big grown up sister to try to get her on board?
Good luck!

DilemmaDelilah · 09/11/2022 08:44

I second separating them as soon as possible. I have two of my grandchildren to stay regularly and they used to share a room, but it was really difficult as the elder would wake up the younger and they would be jumping on their beds and throwing things around, then they would wake each other up in the mornings so they would be wanting breakfast really early. As soon as they were in different role I had no problems at all.

IfIGoThereWillBeTrouble · 09/11/2022 08:51

What consequences do they get after messing up the room and being disobedient?

Would a physical activity like swimming after school wear them out? At my local pool, parents dress the kids in their pyjamas after their swimming lessons so they can go straight to bed when they get home.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 09/11/2022 08:51

My dd was like this. However she was very much an owl from an early age. Maybe they are like this?

TheSilentPicnic · 09/11/2022 08:54

Duct tape?

AlisonDonut · 09/11/2022 09:04

Separate them this weekend, why wait til Christmas?

CuriousMama · 09/11/2022 09:11

How much exercise are they getting?

shieldmaiden7 · 09/11/2022 09:17

You have my sympathy op. I have 2 DD's age 12 and 13. The before bedtime stupidity has been a thing since they were little. Never had that to that extent with my DS's. Even last night I could hear them pratting around and had to call up to them to behave. It's so frustrating as they are at the age, especially the almost 14 year old where the back chat is of the charts!

PineappleWilson · 09/11/2022 09:22

Sometimes outright sibling rivallry is the way to go. Tell them both that they cannot share a room if they do bedtime like this. Get them each a sticker chart, you get a sticker for getting into bed and staying there and going to sleep. If both get a sticker every day for the next week, they can continue to share. If they don't, the child with most stickers gets this room. Add on "I bet you can't settle off to sleep before your DSis" etc. and they'll be competing each other to sleep. Hopefully.

It sounds like they're overtired, in the case of the little one, and bouncing off each other. And I'd agree with toys going away.

Involve them in the conversations - what do they feel about their bedtime - watch programmes about bedtime (JoJo and GranGran have a good one about a sleepover at GranGran's house) and comment on how calm it is, and restful. Do they feel their bedtime is like that? No. Shall we do something to sort this then?

Iamclearlyamug · 09/11/2022 09:26

disappear · 09/11/2022 07:49

If they are sharing by choice, do you have a spare room which could be a playroom? Then you could have no toys in the bedroom. Maybe that would work. Otherwise, separate them.

Agree with this if at all possible

Winter2020 · 09/11/2022 09:30

Bribery?
How about a star chart and when they have settled nicely (ish) for a certain number of times (stars given in the morning) they get a treat. That could be anything that they want and doesn't need to be expensive - could be visiting somewhere they like, making fairy cakes - whatever you think would motivate them.

You could praise them lots like "oh you have listened to your story so nicely I'm so impressed" I wouldn't be quick to actually remove their stars (that might make for upset at bedtime!) but probably give a bit of leeway like. If they are messing around and asking if they'll get their star you could say I decide that in the morning so settle down now and we'll see.

I think it would need to be a small number of stars at first as they are young and not settling well so maybe just 3 stars at first.