To not understand what to do here - 4 month old naps/bedtime

[Nodyourhead]

I’m trying to establish a routine for my just turned 4 month old. Thus far we have no routine. She’s very difficult to get to sleep during the day and in the evening then falls asleep at night and is overtired and often misses a feed.

im embarrassed to even say this but yesterday her day was, wake up 7.30am, finally napped at 3pm for 40 mins then Was incredibly upset and cranky so I let her fall asleep on the boob from say 4-5.30 then she didn’t sleep again until 10pm!!! Didn’t wake for her feeds at all so when I woke at 4.30am I panicked and lifted her to feed. (Her last feed had been 8pm)?

she used to fall asleep downstairs in the bassinet easily enough but now I’m reading about routines and it says naps should be in the same place, and bedtime after a routine no later than 7.30pm in a dimly lit quiet room.

my issue is that guidance also says not to leave baby alone during the day or night until 6 months.

so do I now just spend my evenings in a dimly lit quiet room from 7 on? I don’t mind doing this if it’s recommended but what about if there are visitors etc.

Am I just misunderstanding this whole thing?
please be gentle with me - I’m very anxious she’s not getting enough sleep for her development.

sometimes when she has a day like the above she will sleep loads the next day to catch up. She also generally falls asleep straight away in the car and with a bit more work in the pram at any time not nap times so again I think she’s very overtired.

It's tricky but babies won't necessarily go into a routine as we'd like or they get into a routine and two weeks later, it's changed.

If she's falling asleep in the car, I'd try white noise and rocking to get her to sleep.

Don't worry about leaving her on her own. It's not realistic to stay with her 24/7. I'm sure you've got a baby monitor?

I remember when mine was little he needed a nap around 1.5 hours after he woke in the morning. The only way to do this was to take him out in the pram. It then set him up for a better day of naps, feeding and night sleeping. Being a baby is really tiring for them.

I was also a mother who stayed with her child until they were 7 months old and when he went to bed I went to bed. This was mainly because of the advice you have mentioned but also I was shattered and I followed the "sleep when the baby does".

Others will probably disagree with me but I don't think a four month old necessarily needs a strict routine but a loose one. Trying to impose one that young will leave you frustrated when your LO doesn't get the memo that she needs to eat and then sleep at x and y time.

I guess I’m not trying for a strict routine it’s more it seems clear she’s very overtired so I’m messing it up during the day and she should be napping more and now to know when to get her to nap. I do notice her sleepy cues but I think I notice too late. I don’t know why as she has my undivided attention during the day as she’s my first.

I might take her out in the pram in the morning then @WhereisCam to try set her up for success. Issue is while she sleeps with movement once you stop she wakes up so I will have to spend the 1.5 hours walking and it’s giving rain tomorrow!!

@TheWolves yes I have a baby monitor. I just worry as guidance says not to leave them on their own regardless. That’s the bit I don’t get. We are meant to go stay with my parents for two nights this weekend and it would mean myself or DH spending the evening upstairs on our own and also means DH and I won’t get to spend any time together during the week anymore. Is that what everyone does or does everyone just use baby monitor?

Would you do all naps upstairs in dark room at this age or preservers with trying to get naps in daylight in a bassinet in living room? I used to do the bottles and clean up and cook while she slept beside me (open plan)

Baby hasn’t read the books!
honestly with my first I drove myself mad trying to get her to sleep in a cot in the day, didn’t work.

baby 2 is now 8 months old. He will nap in the car, pram or on me.

at 4 months he was having 4 naps I think, generally when he fed he slept.

maybe try taking baby out for a walk in the pram after she’s been awake 1.5 hours if you haven’t spotted sleep ques earlier or if bf sit somewhere comfy and see if she drops off?
As much as anything you’ll enjoy the break if she naps well!

Have a look for awake windows, on google or Instagram, it’s been really helpful for me in terms of understanding when is the prime time for a baby to go back to sleep again, for example my 7 month old the window is around 2.5 hours after she wakes up, I think for a 4 month old it is 1.5-2 hours? I used this as a guide to get me looking for sleepy signs (whinging, ear rubbing) and 8/10 times if I feed her 2.5 hours after she wakes she will fall asleep, at 4 months I would leave her on me/in the sling/ in the pram but now I’ve moved to feeding in her room and then in her cot. Using this method means she has about 3 naps per day but length and actual timing varies from day to day although bedtime is now always 7pm!
also the not leaving them is all about risk have a look at the risk factors and decide for yourself whether you feel happy leaving them in another room or whether you could see it as an opportunity to chill in their room while they sleep or just catch up on emails etc!

I had two very different babies and applying the wake windows worked amazingly for both. It’s not a routine in the sense of doing the same thing at the same time every day, but once they wake up in the morning you know how the day is going to go. We did wake windows to the end of the day so a slightly different bedtime each night depending on when they wake up from the last nap.
Naps were wherever but usually either in the buggy or in the sling if at home. I couldn’t put either of them down to sleep until 6–7 months.
You can leave the baby sleeping alone in your room in the evening.

Be kind to yourself. Different books all have conflicting rules, so just relax and go with what works for you. It can all feel overwhelming and suffocating otherwise.

I used a monitor from about 3 months, DC still slept in our room until 6 months so it was only for those couple of hours before I went to bed. All fine and made the world of difference giving me my evenings back. It was a video monitor if that makes a difference.

Let them nap wherever works for you both. Pram, living room, wherever. Eventually we moved naps to her room, but only when she was good at going down by herself. It was definitely after 6 months as she was in her own room then.

You will get lots of answers here of people trying to offer some magic mathematical formula, or saying their baby had a strict routine by 6 weeks or soemthing - but the truth in most cases is that this is very early to expect any kind of routine.

Really the easiest thing to do right now - and probably for some time - is to just go with the flow on a day to day basis. Yes getting stuck upstairs at 7pm is normal, don't let the in laws guilt you into having a lack of routine. Enjoy the time snuggling with your tiny baby whilst it lasts.

Ultimately the routine will emerge naturally, until then just feed at regular intervals and trust your instincts a little. At 4 months it might want feeding every 2 hours for instance, but again every baby is a little different.

As others have said experiment with timing, pram trips, white noise etc - but try and avoid stressing about it by setting yourself unrealistic goals.

We can put so much pressure on ourselves trying to establish a pattern on the wrongful assumption that it equates to being a good parent, where the truth is things are usually all over the place for much of the first year tbh. It's hard when it is the first but if you orient yourself around doing whatever the baby feels like doing that day and taking it all with a pinch of salt will enable you to enjoy it a lot more

So in summary, do offer regular feeds but it doesn't really matter on a routine, you know your baby better than anyone else so see it as a beautiful voyage of discovery together!

Yes don't be too hard on yourself. There is a lot of variation in baby sleep and how much they need and all the books/websites give different advice. A lot of people find the wake window stuff helpful but it's quite a new concept.

It's fine if baby only naps in pram or on you at 4 months...mine used to nap in a pram in the kitchen or sometimes I'd have to go on a walk. Now he's older he does nap in the cot, though my friend's girl never got the hang of it!

Also I wouldn't worry about her missing feeds, maybe she is just dropping them naturally? When they are first born you are advised to feed often for supply but that shouldn't be an issue by 4 months.

I would also say wake windows is helpful. DS2 is nearly 5 months and can do 2 hours before he starts to get grumpy. So for him, I feed him on waking, then do nappy change/let him roll around on the floor/go out for a walk etc then after he’s been awake for 1 hour 45 ish I pop him in the sling. Usually I just let him nap on me but I am starting to put him in his cot for naps as I am back to work in Jan. in the evening I sit downstairs with the lamp on so it’s fairly dim, get him in his sleeping bag and then feed him while watching the TV. He feeds for much longer on this feed and once he’s asleep I cuddle him until I take him up to go in his cot which is usually around 9. He usually falls asleep 8-8:30.

I wouldn't worry too much about routine during the day unless it is something you feel strongly about. For my little one we focused mainly on getting his nights sorted so we could all get more sleep, and everything else fell into place naturally over the next few months. My advice is to focus on 1 thing at a time (e.g. bedtime), I found trying to control every single nap or feed way too complicated.

For nights, we tried to not let him sleep after 4:30-5pm to ensure he was tired by 7pm (we would go for a walk or do bath to keep him stimulated). It worked very well after a week or so.

For the nights feeds, I think he slept through the night from 5 months, and was completely fine. As long as he still had wet nappies in the morning we weren't worried. He would go to bed around 7pm and then we would do a dream feed around 10-11pm when we went to bed, and wake up around 5am for another feed.

@Nodyourhead take her out for a walk with the rain cover on. Make sure she is loosely covered and not too cold/hot and when she is asleep if you have a back garden leave her in the rear garden in the pram. My son loved sleeping outside. He was cosy in the pram and the air did him the world of good. He slept longer out there. I was either out with him or he was always in sight from the kitchen. Obviously if you don't have any shelter when it is wet then it might not be the best plan.

I did go out in all weathers with my boy. I bought waterproof boots and a decent coat. I actually miss those days.

4 months is hard because they still need a load of sleep in the day, but thethey'becoming more aware of stimulation, so the previous nap setup goes out the window.

You've got two issues as I see it - when should she be napping, and how to get her to nap? In the next weeks she will be able to stay awake long enough to nap "by the clock" - mine napped 3 times a day at this age, I read plenty of baby books and although they vary a bit in their advice (and varies vary in their needs) thats pretty average - a typical routine would be
Get up 7am
Morning nap 9-10
Afternoon nap 12-2
Late afternoon nap 4-5
Bedtime half 7

You move the naps around according to whether they are looking tired, and the times sort of adjust as the weeks go on. One of mine dropped the third nap at 7 months, the other at 8 months, then they went down to one nap at about 15 months.

As for getting them to nap... do whatever is necessary.for some reason they don't seem to pick up "bad habits" from naptime so if you need to feed to sleep or go out in the buggy or whatever, do that - the nighttime sleep will be better for it. One of my kids needed a quiet, completely dark room to sleep in - we used blackout material from easyblinds.co.uk to make it pitch black, and then she slept like a stone! Her sister was much less fussy... it just depends on the child.

Yes, I remember having just the same confusion. People who had babies years ago don't realise that all the sleep experts and the NHS say to stay with baby at all times when they're asleep until 6 months but also as you say to nap and sleep in dark environments with white noise etc. My mum always used to say "don't be ridiculous you have a baby monitor" and literally not believe me that the NHS said that wasn't good enough. I used to do 3 naps a day with my 4 month old, 1st one for an hour, 2nd one for 2 hours and then a 15min nap walking round the block. I would sit in with him until he fell asleep but i would also leave him and I couldn't sit on the floor for 3 hours a day. Sleep cycles are 45 mins long at this age meaning they start to stir/go into lighter sleep after 45 mins so I would sneak back in and tap his bum and shush him to lull him back into a further 45...I would prioritise dark, white noise, consistency and prioritise the naps. Not sleeping from 7.30 to 3pm is way too long a gap. Good luck. Sleep is so so tough but routine was the answer to all my prayers cos it stopped overtirednees and crankyness.

Didn’t wake for her feeds at all so when I woke at 4.30am I panicked and lifted her to feed. (Her last feed had been 8pm)?

Unless there are concerns around her weight, I wouldn't wake a 4 month old to feed. She'll wake when hungry.

When mine was that little, he was an absolute nightmare for sleeping by himself. He mostly stayed in the bed with me, so I barely slept too. It was ghastly!

If ever I could get him in his cot, I would go with just the baby monitor though. I was desperate for whatever time I could get away to be honest!

Can't help with routines as they drove me mad last time so I'm not bothering this time.

I am worried about SIDS so always do naps when I'm in the same room. This means during the day I'd have something safe for them to sleep in (this time my carrycot is certified for over night sleep, last time I had a travel cot although they mainly slept on me), or pram etc. Evenings I'd either start them off downstairs or go up with them and then watch telly in bed when they're asleep.

Thanks all for your kind messages. I will look up the wake windows and see if that helps identify sleeping times and I’ll try follow that pattern.

I guess evenings and visitors will have To go out the window for two months until we can use baby monitor and I’ll stay upstairs with her from 7pm. Also worried about SIDS @MarianneVos Just a pity Christmas is before the 6 months.

she used to sleep fine downstairs in her bassinet from 7-8 and then 9-12 and DH would then give her a feed and she’d go to sleep upstairs but it’s just not working anymore.

thanks for the tip re 45 mins @WannabeArtist

@Anycrispsleft you’ve got it exactly. I’ll try your tips. Nearly 7 now and she’s fast asleep since feed at 4.30 so I’ll start the wake periods and try for naps from when she wakes.

it’s not that I care about routine for the sake of routine it’s that she’s very obviously overtired during the day/evening and I just can’t get her down! So I’m worried about her brain development and starting to panic. I don’t know why I’m so bad at this!!!

At this age just let her fall asleep when she naturally does. Even if you establish a routine it will change 200000000 times from now until they're two. Your baby will be getting enough sleep don't worry. Put them in a carrier and walk around if you're spending that much time trying to settle them. Most young babies will settle naturally in a carrier if you just walk about.
And don't the baby to feed them.... not at 4 months.... be glad they slept so long, your sleep is important too!!
Basically just go with the flow, I wound myself up loads wIth my first thinking about sleep and it's not worth it.

Op bedtime doesnt need to be esrly at 7 most European countries think of different times as baby bedtime.

Why not just make her bedtime when you would naturally be going up anway

If she is going to have a good block of sleep its best if it is matching your pattern

No need to go sitting in the dark at 7

Her brain development wìll be fine...she is a little mammal! She will be sleeping enough overall

I've found the Huckleberry app really useful for getting tuned in to wake windows, it works out when the next nap is due based on the previous one so you know when to start looking for the sleepy cues rather than realising too late.

She def needs a bedtime routine upstairs now. I was happy to leave mine sleeping upstairs with the monitor on by this stage. She'll be wildly overtired and overstimulated to be downstairs where it's still light and noisy when she's tired.

We didn't have a strict routine at this stage, more an awareness that she could only be awake for a couple of hours at a time and I needed to help her get to sleep then. That might be feeding her to sleep or taking her out for a walk. For my own sanity I needed her to be able to nap on the go, so sometimes we'd do daytime naps in her cot, sometimes in the buggy.

Many parents do leave parents sleeping alone in rooms, I think it’s new guidance not to leave them in a room alone at all. I used a breathing monitor for my youngest, so that would have gone off anyway but I definitely left her in our bedroom during the evening before we went to bed. Otherwise I’d have been in bed at 8pm which wasn’t practical as I had a teenager and toddler too.

You're not bad at it, at all. It's very hard. Please don't beat yourself up.