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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

People are fine with being disrespectful to Christians

1000 replies

Flymetothezoom · 31/10/2022 09:34

At a church playgroup. The people who run it are very devout Christians. I am taken aback, by the number of parents, who thought it was appropriate to bring their kids to the church dressed for Halloween. Kids are dressed as witches, goblins, skeletons, creepy pumpkins etc..
The church holds a light party every year on Halloween and is very clear that they do not endorse Halloween.

OP posts:
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5
SmallPrawnEnergy · 31/10/2022 10:29

So you’re saying turning up to a Sunday service and a child wearing a pumpkin costume at a party is the same thing? You’re either being incredibly hyperbolic or you’re just plain stupid. Either way it’s not winning you any favours.

Doesn’t Halloween having Christian roots anyway? Perhaps you could have used this as a learning platform for your attendees rather than slagging them off anonymously on the internet, so very Christian of you.

This is why I avoid the local Church groups like the plague. It’s a shame as some of them look great but the indoctrination is not something that rounds off a play session imo.

Brefugee · 31/10/2022 10:30

My close friend who's Catholic isn't hugely into Halloween as it falls on All Saints Day.

your friend is sadly mistaken and might like to look up what Hallowe'en is short for. Grin

Here in Germany most states have a holiday either for today (Reformation Day - the protestants, celebrating Martin Luther and the break from Rome) or tomorrow (All Saints' Day - they usually visit relative's grates and clean and tidy them up and light candles). Except in Hessen where they get nothing for some reason.

Halloween is starting to be a thing here (Americanisation is a thing, but there are a LOT of airbases over here, our local one doesn't have married quarters, so they live among us, and of course businesses are keen to find something else to sell stuff for). I see from my fb memories we've been putting out pumpkins and getting little visitors for Trick or Treat (and some not so little) since about 2002.

Despite being a very catholic area, they either join or they don't but there are no cat's bum pursed lips

oakleaffy · 31/10/2022 10:30

youlightupmyday · 31/10/2022 10:28

I think with issues such as these it is a classic WWJD?

I don’t think He would mind if little children dressed up as Pumpkins.

LakieLady · 31/10/2022 10:31

BlueBar · 31/10/2022 10:17

An interesting side note then, a friend of mine once did a Christmas fancy dress event dressed as a heavily pregnant Virgin Mary. I thought that was disrespectful (in a gosh you're dreadful, not an I'm truly offended kind of way) but she felt she was respecting the Christmas story. Which was it?

I think it was lazy. She should have put in more effort and come as the wee donkey.

heyytheredelilah · 31/10/2022 10:32

BretonBlue · 31/10/2022 10:28

I am a practising Christian and feel as you do but many Christians do ban Harry Potter as a celebration of the occult.

yes they do. 😭 I’m happy to be part of a relaxed parish- we have many people join us from other churches. (We are CofE for example, and have had divorced catholic’s join us and gay men and women. As their church does not accept them!)
I think all the church kids I can think of LOVE Harry Potter.😬

KettrickenSmiled · 31/10/2022 10:33

luxxlisbon · 31/10/2022 09:46

Fucking hell dressing your child as a pumpkin or witch isn’t disrespectful to Christians.

😂😂😂
Jesus turned water into wine. And multiplied loaves & fishes. Can't recall any significant teachings against pumpkins, but who knows, perhaps there are Dark Warnings about root veg in the old testament.

Mumoblue · 31/10/2022 10:33

How exactly is kids playing dress up disrespectful to Christians?

I have to believe this isn’t real, surely nobody is this pearl-clutchy.
And aren’t most church run playgroups open to non-Christians anyway?

heyytheredelilah · 31/10/2022 10:34

KatieBell12 · 31/10/2022 10:27

I'm a Christian and have no issue with Halloween. I don't find it disrespectful at all. Do you also ban Harry Potter and the like?

And stranger things…. Our vicar loves stranger things and invited me and a few friends over from church to watch the last series 🤣

SingUsASongYoureThePenileMan · 31/10/2022 10:35

Mumoblue · 31/10/2022 10:33

How exactly is kids playing dress up disrespectful to Christians?

I have to believe this isn’t real, surely nobody is this pearl-clutchy.
And aren’t most church run playgroups open to non-Christians anyway?

They exist, if you know one personally they'll make themselves known. My personal Halloween heckler hasn't given up in over a decade.

Vincitveritas · 31/10/2022 10:35

@ReneBumsWombats This is from BibleInfo.com:

'The origin of Halloween as we know it, began over 1900 years ago in England, Ireland, and Northern France. It was a Celtic celebration of the new year, called Samhain which occurred on November 1. The Celtic druids revered it as the biggest holiday of the year and emphasized that day as the time when the souls of the dead supposedly could mingle with the living. Bonfires were a large aspect of this holiday as well.

Samhain remained popular until St. Patrick and other Christian missionaries arrived in the area. As the population began to convert to Christianity the holiday began to lose its popularity. However, instead of eradicating pagan practices such as “Halloween” or Samhain, the church used these holidays with a Christian twist to bring paganism and Christianity together, making it easier for local populations to convert to the state religion.

Another tradition is the druidic belief that during the night of November 1, demons, witches, and evil spirits freely roamed the earth with joy to greet the arrival of “their season”—the long nights and early dark of the winter months. The demons had their fun with poor mortals that night, frightening, harming, and even playing all kinds of mean tricks on them. The only way, it seemed, for scared humans to escape the persecution of the demons was to offer them things they liked, especially fancy foods and sweets. Or, in order to escape the fury of these horrible creatures, a human could disguise himself as one of them and join in their roaming. In this way, they would recognize the human as a demon or witch and the human would not be bothered that night.

During the time of the Roman empire, there was the custom of eating or giving away fruit, especially apples, on Halloween. It spread to neighboring countries; to Ireland and Scotland from Britain, and to the Slavic countries from Austria. It is probably based upon a celebration of the Roman goddess Pomona, to whom gardens and orchards were dedicated. Since the annual Feast of Pomona was held on November 1, the relics of that observance became part of our modern-day Halloween celebrations, for instance, the familiar tradition of “dunking” for apples.

Today costumes take the place of disguises and candy has replaced fruits and other fancy foods as children go door-to-door trick-or-treating. Originally trick-or-treating began as “souling,” when children would go door-to-door on Halloween, with soul cakes, singing and saying prayers for the dead. Over the course of history Halloween’s visible practices have morphed and merged with the culture of the day, but the purpose of honoring the dead, veiled in fun and festivities, has remained the same.'

As another poster said, the church incorporated pagan festivals rather than appropriating them.

Comtesse · 31/10/2022 10:35

It’s a playgroup not a church service. I don’t think it’s spectacularly disrespectful at all or being rude to Christians. I think you are overthinking this.

LakieLady · 31/10/2022 10:36

BretonBlue · 31/10/2022 10:28

I am a practising Christian and feel as you do but many Christians do ban Harry Potter as a celebration of the occult.

I didn't know that.

How do they feel about LOTR, which also includes magic and wizards? And Tolkien was strict RC, and regarded his work as being deeply rooted in his Catholicism.

Rainbowandbirdhouse · 31/10/2022 10:36

Halloween isn't about 'glorifying the darkness' OP, it's quite the opposite. You completely misunderstand the origins and meaning of the festival. (Probably lots of people do.)

Whatsleftnow · 31/10/2022 10:37

The first time I encountered this was making small talk outside preschool about what the kids wanted to dress up as, and another mum looked down her nose at me and declared “ I’m a Christian. We don’t do Halloween”

Well I’m a Christian too. And because I don’t do put downs, so I let it go. Different strokes.

But I’m just saying that it’s very easy to miss that memo because it’s not shared by all denominations.

I’m very much of the mindset that we were taught to fear witches instead of fearing those that burned them. I’m far more comfortable around people dressed as vampires and witches than I am around po-faced Christians.

Powderandpaint · 31/10/2022 10:37

@girlmom21 From what I've seen on here, it's because those who express their Christian views try and force them onto others and make people feel bad for viewing the world differently

Personally I haven't seen that.

IMO the mistake many people make is lumping all 'Christians' together as a homogenous group when in actual fact there are many denominations with slightly different teachings.

In the same way Islam is divided into Sunni, Shia, Sufi etc.

HelenWick · 31/10/2022 10:37

This is the churches problem in 2022. What are they for? What is the point? What are the rules?
Churches want new members and need to increase congregations but people like yourself have a fixed idea of how everyone should behave and are intolerant.

Blocked · 31/10/2022 10:37

I actually clicked this thread expecting to agree with you. I'm not religious myself but I don't like the mocking way some people talk about 'the sky fairy' and that sort of thing. But YABVU. Halloween doesn't exist to personally offend you. It seems to only be a recent thing that churchy people object to Halloween.

Cw112 · 31/10/2022 10:37

Growing up the church we went to had a Halloween party every year for the kids so naturally some dressed up. It was never taken as offensive or disrespectful. I actually think it's more disrespectful to assume that all Christians think the same/ take the same approach to things as if its a blanket religion. The church can hold a stance on something but they cannot expect all people coming to the church to hold the exact same stance on a personal level in every area. There's plenty of people who go to church because it's the church that fits closest to their personal views or they like the community music and ministry but don't agree with every aspect of how things are done because while religion is the umbrella, faith is deeply individual.

SingUsASongYoureThePenileMan · 31/10/2022 10:37

As another poster said, the church incorporated pagan festivals rather than appropriating them.

What is the difference between incorporating and appropriating, especially, if, like light parties, the aim is to destroy the original roots?

Is it like the difference between cheating and plagerism?

Blocked · 31/10/2022 10:39

Powderandpaint · 31/10/2022 10:37

@girlmom21 From what I've seen on here, it's because those who express their Christian views try and force them onto others and make people feel bad for viewing the world differently

Personally I haven't seen that.

IMO the mistake many people make is lumping all 'Christians' together as a homogenous group when in actual fact there are many denominations with slightly different teachings.

In the same way Islam is divided into Sunni, Shia, Sufi etc.

Yeah this particular thing struck me as very Presbyterian.

ancientgran · 31/10/2022 10:39

SomePosters · 31/10/2022 10:21

Yep, it’ll disrespect Christian’s till the cows come home.

Using the threat of an all powerful all seeing being to control the populace is an outdated method not everyone has grown out of yet.

Anyone that chooses to align themselves with the church is suspect as far as I’m concerned.

Standing up and saying ‘Im a Catholic’ after everything we now have evidence the Catholic Church has been doing both at home and around the world is at best blindly selfish and at worst a way of covering your own abusive behaviour

imagine getting offended because you had a Halloween party and people came dressed for Halloween.

It’s a good thing you’ve never experience real persecution.

For a idea of real persecution why not read about the Christian missionaries who did everything in their power to irradiate native religions around the world or the many, many way they set up institutes to ‘help’ the poor and vulnerable so they could abuse them.

If you don't like Christianity or Christians maybe find a playgroup that isn't on church property. It's not like the local leisure centre, it is a church property so they can set the rules.

Obviously parents should be made aware of the rules. The OP says they make it clear they don't endorse halloween, I'm not sure if that includes making it clear they don't want halloween costumes. I'm a Catholic and don't particularly like halloween but don't find it offensive (unless the trick or treaters are threatening) but I think any religious organisation has a right to set their rules.

SVRT19674 · 31/10/2022 10:39

My daughter goes to a Spanish catholic school and whilst they themselves dont do anything for Halloween they know full well the kids are getting out of uniform into their pumpkin and witches outfits. We actually crossed paths with one of the nuns who complimented my little ones outfit. She didn´t seem offended or phazed in any way. So perhaps you and your set should relax a little and maybe not do parties on All Hallows Eve.

arctica · 31/10/2022 10:39

If they explicitly told people not to wear costumes then yeah thats a bit disrespectful. But not everyone knows about light festivals, or that some Christians don't like Halloween.

loveisanopensore · 31/10/2022 10:40

Christian is a bit too broad a description though.

I'm Irish and like the majority I was raised Catholic. Halloween is massive.
My daughter's Catholic ethos primary school holds a Halloween parade.
Derry city's Halloween celebrations are amazing.

The playgroup should just have done nothing rather than try to replace an existing tradition.

IncompleteSenten · 31/10/2022 10:40

You say it's "very clear that they don't endorse it"
Have they written to parents and said do not dress your child up for Halloween or are you expecting people to guess? What is clear to you is not necessarily clear to someone else.

The church playgroup has the responsibility to clearly communicate. So they should properly inform parents that their kid can't dress up.

It's a very simple and quite obvious thing to do.

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