To wonder why nobody thinks my DD is autistic?

[Nobodylistens]

DD is 11.
She has always been quiet, intelligent and rather intolerant of peers her age.
At some points it came across rude - she got to about 6 and couldn’t see why kids her age were still running around dressed as fairies so would rather play alone or with one other child similar in nature.
As time has gone on, she has become more and more socially awkward - she hates any situations where she will have to talk to people she doesn’t know and refuses completely to attend holiday clubs for me to work but also won’t be left alone at home for any length of time in fear for someone breaking in ( we’ve never had a break in )
Shes not affectionate and tenses up completely if anyone shows her any affection and is clearly visibly uncomfortable; tears when nan tries to hug or kiss her goodbye ( we’ve had to tell nan to stop in no uncertain terms )
Shes now gone vegetarian which is fine but can’t accept others in the house are still eating meat and is visibly upset at meal times where meat is being served and asks to eat in her room alone so she doesn’t have to see it
She can’t hear people eat - she leaves the room if someone makes a noise whilst eating
She can’t share a room on holiday with her sister or me or dad as she can “ hear “ us breathing and gets frustrated that we can’t sleep with our mouths closed and no noise
Lack of empathy - a toddler fell over in front of us today and older DD ran over to pick her up; DD said she should have looked where she was going
Massive attachment to her dog, almost obsessed to the point she thinks she’s a human; talks to her, cuddles her, speaks about her the entire time we are away from home for any length of time

Lots more examples but feeling especially drained tonight as she has finally gone to bed after being convinced that the flies we saw on the dog walk might now be in her bedroom - she doesn’t want to sleep with me; says that’s weird at her age ( even though 13 year old DD sometimes does ) but sometimes just won’t / can’t sleep so sits up all night as I won’t let her have technology after 8pm so just repeatedly comes in to tell me she’s bored and can’t sleep but doesn’t actually want anything I can offer.

Im sure there’s something going on but nobody agrees.

anyone been here?

WahineToa

You made a massive over generalisation.

I also don’t think anybody should be told to lie or made to feel that they should. I find the honesty shown by people / children with autism that I know refreshing. I love my daughter’s honesty, she is now surrounded by other people who do too.

There are conflicting studies on this, and lots of things, which is why I don’t generally link studies online or get into them. As I say, in my experience of living with, raising and being friends with people on the spectrum, more so than NT’s, I do not find any difference between NT & autistic people with regards to lying. I see a difference with detecting lies, not telling them.

@Tw33dleD33 no I did not, I think it’s a massive generalisation that many/most autistic people can’t lie. It’s a fanciful notion based on the bluntness, which is common.
this is what I said
It’s not an autistic trait, being unable to lie

Thats a fact. I don’t even think it’s true for the individual that it’s ‘almost impossible for me to lie’ If that was an actual medical possibility, to find someone unable to lie, well it would be a big fucking deal. If you actually read my posts, you’d see me say repeatedly bluntness is common and I see it in my DD & DH. All children are shocked when they realise adults lie because we spend all our time telling them not to. The discovery Santa isn’t real and it’s a huge adult conspiracy is a big deal for lots of kids!

I stand by what I said.

@wacademia - That is an excellent post where you have explained about white lies and omissions.

I am also autistic so will share a recent example of my own.

My DH was worried because his brother was very ill and being taken to hospital. He said to me “What if he dies?”. I replied “Well if he does that will be very sad”.

DH - “Oh, why do you always have to be so cold and lack compassion?! I know you can’t help it but just sometimes!!” <stormed from room in upset manner>

I love my DH very much. I realised immediately I’d given the ‘wrong answer’ and that he had wanted me to say “don’t worry, he will be okay” or something similar. I couldn’t have said that though as the probability was that he wouldn’t be okay.

What I could have, and should have said, was “He is in the best place” (with the state of the NHS at present that might not be strictly true, but true enough for me to have allowed myself to say it).

I should then have given him a hug (I went and did this once I had thought about it). I think I am a very tactful person generally and I know I ‘’mask” well and have saved up all sorts of helpful and appropriate phrases to use in situations where I don’t know what to say.

It’s just that when someone asks me a direct question that my brain goes straight to an honest answer usually, without stopping to consider it first.

My DH has suggested to me that sometimes I should just lie, even to him, when he asks me questions like “Did you fancy me as soon as you met me?” (He is very sensitive, not sure how we ended up together sometimes 😂)

I don’t lie to people I care about. Lying is the easy way out at times but not the kindest (re: not wanting friends to go out in unflattering clothes).

Not long ago an old school friend turned up unexpectedly at my house and knocked on the door. When I answered she explained that she was on her way out but had stopped to get my opinion on her new fringe. I told her it suited her (which is did) and she said “you are the one person I can rely on to tell me the truth, that is why I came to ask you”
So it can be a good thing.

Believe it or not though, I have very high empathy levels and am very good at supporting people who are distressed. Friends say it is because I am impossible to shock (not sure that is true) but I am not really judgemental about things that others might be, and I know that as humans we frequently make mistakes and judge ourselves far too harshly. I’m also in a safe person to confide in too, as if I promise “I won’t tell anyone” then I mean it.

Your husband is so insecure about your feelings for him that he wants you lie about when you started fancying him to make him feel better. Marriage is meant to be based on trust, but he wants you to lie to him.

He wants you to make a promise about the wellbeing of someone whose medical care you have no influence over. You expressed the sincere belief that your BIL dying would be very sad and he called you cold and flounced out.

But somehow you're the unreasonable one? No, you're not, he is. He needs to learn not to speak in code. If he wants to express a worry that his brother might not survive, he should say "I am scared that he might die in hospital" or similar to say what he actually means. That allows you to understand his actual concern easily, allowing you to give relevant truthful reassurances like "the medical team are highly skilled and will do their best to make sure he comes through".

For him to guilt-trip you about your response is manipulative and unfair. He's the problem here, not you.

I don’t even think it’s true for the individual that it’s ‘almost impossible for me to lie'

I describe my lived experience and you call me a liar. Remind me how autistic people are supposed to be the rude ones and NTs the well-mannered socially-fluent empathic people again?

He isn’t generally unreasonable @wacademia , the hospital one yes, but he was in an emotional state and overreacted- he failed to say what he actually meant you are right, and I just answered the question he asked - so it was poor communication on his part.

But I think neurotypical people learn poor communication as it often works when they are communicating with other NT people, they kind of filter it and still guess correctly what the response the person is asking for, so I supposed it’s cross communication rather than ‘bad communication’.

Re: the insecure questions and honest answers.. it’s said in a tongue in cheek way as he doesn’t really expect me to lie (and knows that I wouldn’t). Even I laugh when I look back at some of the responses I gave to his questions in the early days, as being brutally honest does sometimes have a comic side to it, that is unintentional.

We are just different and have and are still learning to understand and adapt to each other (which happens in all relationships I think, neurodiverse or not!)

Remind me how autistic people are supposed to be the rude ones and NTs the well-mannered socially-fluent empathic people again?

Well whoever said or thinks that would be wrong wouldn’t they? Everyone can be rude, you and I both included. You have a right to share your lived experience. But I also have a right to share my opinion and when you speak of a physical impossibility to lie, I just don’t think that’s possible. Biologically. Neither does my autistic husband. I’m not calling you a liar. I just don’t think it’s possible. Now, I understand that this is a sensitive topic, but you are making it quite difficult to share other opinions because you’re jumping on things others are saying and to me, making your experience and perception the only one that matters.

We are just different and have and are still learning to understand and adapt to each other (which happens in all relationships I think, neurodiverse or not!)

Exactly. Your husband isn’t ‘the problem’ at all. I really appreciate you sharing that story, sounds like most marriages, where we figure out each others needs and sensitivities because you care about each other. The idea being sensitive to someone’s fears about a loved one dying and not dwelling on that possibility, is ‘lying’, is to me quite ridiculous. Your husband wasn’t being manipulative, he was fearful and worried.

Re: Re: the insecure questions and honest answers.. it’s said in a tongue in cheek way as he doesn’t really expect me to lie

When you said this:

My DH has suggested to me that sometimes I should just lie, even to him, when he asks me questions like “Did you fancy me as soon as you met me?” (He is very sensitive, not sure how we ended up together sometimes

you do not mention him being tongue in cheek. I gave my view based on the available information. Nonetheless, I apologise for my inaccurate assessment of your DH's motives. I should have considered that the information you gave was not complete.

The idea being sensitive to someone’s fears about a loved one dying and not dwelling on that possibility, is ‘lying’, is to me quite ridiculous.

I didn't at any point say that it was. You have now fabricated an opinion and ascribed it to me, this is an example of the straw man fallacy. What I did specifically say was that stating an untruth about the whereabouts of a cat was lying. That stating that a dress is lovely when I think it really isn't at all is a lie. In the example I gave of Grandpa's cat, I was taking great care to be sensitive to someone who was in an awful situation without lying to him. This is actually a really important point for the OP and her DD: you don't have to lie to show sensitivity to others because you can be skilful in how much of the truth you tell to achieve the same outcome.

not dwelling on that possibility

The DH raised the subject of death and cannot fairly object to the poster staying with that subject.

Your husband wasn’t being manipulative

I made that assertion based on the incomplete information I had at the time as quoted at the top of this post and am glad to revise my opinion in the light of Pumpkin's later clarification.

when you speak of a physical impossibility to lie

I said "nearly or almost impossible" (I'm not going back to the previous page to check which because the webpage will eat my comment if I do). That one word is important. I then went on to describe what, in the light of your feedback, I now suspect to be a profound fear response. A liitle more about my situation: in order to tell a direct lie, I have to first gaslight myself, tell myself the lie until I almost completely believe it myself and put the actual truth into a tiny corner of my mind and try not to think of it. I am frightened that one day I will forget what the actual truth was, effectively giving myself false memories. I omitted this level of detail initially because I had thought that using the word "nearly" would give enough clarity. Orwell described this process of believing two conflicting things as "doublethink" and it is very harmful to the doublethinker's mental health. Only when I have lied enough to myself does the "frozen tongue" response abate so that I can utter the lie, because enough of me no longer thinks I'm lying. Setting up this doublethink takes time and cannot be done on the spot. Now, do you think that it is reasonable to expect someone to induce doublethink in themselves in order to spare some else's feelings?

I am prepared, now that I understand the extent to which fear causes this (and again, thank you for prompting me to re-examine that), to accept that this specific manifestation of highly-truthful behaviour is probably an outlier. However, it remains the case that the posted study indicates that autistic children are five times more likely to be honest when asked to admit to disobedience that they have every reason to believe would be undetectable. I infer from that study that autistic people are more likely to be truthful but that we aren't all truthful all the time. It's just as unfair for you to say that we can lie when it suits us, when the research indicates that we are much more likely to struggle with that, as it would be for me to imply that we can all never lie (which is never what I said, but I think is what you think I said).

you are making it quite difficult to share other opinions

Pot, kettle. You have misread what I have said, ignoring important qualifiers like "nearly/almost", and then put words in my mouth.

I’m not going to further derail tbh. This has become a thread about you and lying, and not about helping the OPs daughter. I don’t think I have anything of value to contribute to her questions and concerns.

From my last message: This is actually a really important point for the OP and her DD: you don't have to lie to show sensitivity to others because you can be skilful in how much of the truth you tell to achieve the same outcome.

But fine, I'm a derailer.

My asd son has no filter, he told the HT at his secondary that it was an exam factory and staff had little regard for the well-being of the pupils. Prob true but best not to say so. He hasn’t learned to moderate his comments so if he thinks it he says it? I guess this comes with experience