to think this isn’t enough for a lifetime?

[Teaandtoast35]

It feels to me like there’s no clear answer. Perhaps I’m waiting on one.

pros
-I want this to (magically?) work out
-I love him
-he loves me
-he wants to be together
-he tries and cares (after a lot of effort from me to convert him, he now does washing up, laundry, bins, hoovers; he cooks for special occasions and bakes; he books date nights - has always done this)
-he loves our children (all of whom we have lost, mcs and a stillborn baby)
—we have many of the same big picture values
-I fancy him, find him cute, sweet, I love how enthusiastic he is about things he loves
-he works hard (but his work is relaxed; he has no reason to be stressed)
-he supports my career and is a big believer in me
-we have had many good times
-he is (apart from the below) into equality, thoughtful, and we do discuss things
-we enjoy many of the same things
-we have similar vibes
-we have built a life together and been there for each other

cons

-we have never had frequent sex and it’s become much “simpler” over the last few years. I would like more and to have fun with it. It never really feels like he desires me, although he doesn’t have any problems “getting there” once we are doing it.
-he tells me he wants the same (sex wise) which is confusing because he barely ever initiates and only when I’ve reminded him we’re not having any or when we are ttc
-if he is tired or feeling uncomfortable at a social function (as many of us feel from time to time) or is busy and I interrupt him to ask a question, he will go cold on me, look at me with dead eyes, pretend to be falling asleep, not laugh at anything. I don’t know if he looks at other people with dead eyes but he does the fakey fall asleep in front of other people. It feels like a communication, but also a punishment for making him come out.
-we argue frequently and i get the impression, particularly lately now I’ve started to question things, that I’m talking to get our relationship on track because if we want to keep ttc we have to not argue when we have kids, and he’s talking to defend himself and blame me for bringing things up. He does see my pov… but I worry he’s just repeating back to me what I’ve said to placate me.
-we discussed recently that some of his frustration comes from thinking “why can’t she just do this thing for me? It’s not hard and I do a lot for her”. I cannot list all the things I’ve done for him during our 5 years together here because it would be a very long post. I would say he pulls his weight. But this attitude leads to things like eg I’m miscarrying and have back pain and he asks for my bank card so he can go get me ibuprofen (he has a LOT more money than me). I yell at him and he gets the point — if we labour share, I’ll do the pain part and he can go spend 50p.
-he doesn’t often laugh at my jokes. I know that sounds silly but I wish our time together wasn’t just being cute and pleasant and laughing at mutual things but I wish he didn’t give me blank face so much.
-sometimes the atmosphere he creates around the house is just difficult
-we don’t often eat together because his diet is completely calorie controlled and fitted with exercise so there’s no bonus in terms of evening meals together or less time cooking! it also means we can’t spontaneously go out as much as I’d like
-he talks about scheduling all the time and acts very busy when he isn’t so often days in a row I’ll hear “I don’t have enough time!!” a lot of the day. Always time for the gym tho.

My friends all live with great men who are difficult in some ways. In some ways I think my thinking is more about whether I choose to spend my life on a man, or choose to spend my life on myself (career, seeing my friends and family) and kids (we have struggled so much, I’m not scared to try alone as I feel like it either will work or won’t work and I’m having IVF regardless). I am so sad but I’m also a bit numb, from having gone through a lot of pain and wondering how much pain/struggle I’m willing to take on over the next 25 years (ie if we do have children I’ll be tied to him). Also a factor: my last ex had a horrible illness while we were together and I took care of him throughout. He also had a lot of these issues and I swore I wouldn’t spend my life taking care of anyone in that way again. I want to take care of kids and I want to do my work and live my life and I want to, if there’s a man there, have sex and laughter and love and that be the thing that keeps us together through all the crap bits.

But I’m in a total fog and I just don’t know what to do. I don’t know how bad the cons list is. I’ve only had 2 LTRs. Help

This relationship sounds too much like hard work.

You will find less and less enjoyable moments... I'd start anew elsewhere

I just read your other thread which is the same with a different title. This one is better.

From what I've read, he's perfectly lovely as long as you're doing what he wants and toeing the line. As soon as you step over that line, he punishes you for it.

I'm really sorry you've had so many losses, I'm sure that makes you feel more tied to him. But I think this relationship has run its course.

Some of this could be improved with better communication but if he’s mean (50p???) that’s a big turn off and will be worse with a family. The last paragraph is another big red flag for me. You’ll potentially end up doing 95% of the slog of children ( I hope you are successful in this) while he’s busy at the gym. That breeds unbelievable resentment.

Does he know you are having doubts? Counselling could be useful.

I agree that he doesn't want to 'be bothered' and not just likes, but expects things easy for him, and to run his way only. It does sound like he will step up if he thinks you are corss, because he doesn't want to lose whatever you supply him in life. But it doesn't come naturally to him and he only does it because he "has" to, not because he gets genuine joy from your happiness.

The dead eyes/blanking stuff would be intolerable to me. It tells you he isn't seeing you as a partner, more like a service, and he only expects to ackowledge you when it suits him. It would make me die a little inside every time, I think.

He asked for your bank card to get painkillers for you WHILE you were miscarrying?!
Painkillers that you would give a colleague/ stranger free if they had a headache, and think nothing of it.
What does that tell you about him?
RUN

This, what the hell, thats just awful. You would probably find yourself during maternity leave eating into your savings while he says things like “I’m not paying for you to go sit in a coffee shop all day” and continues to strengthen his financial position.

Virtually any of those cons, on their own, would have me running for the hills. Cold dead eyes? No, thanks. Can't pay for painkillers for you? No, thanks. Tension in the house? No real sex? Nah.

Come on, OP. I think you'll feel like you're on holiday if you dump this man.

I'd suggest you try counseling. Not to try and save this relationship, but to find the strength to let it go.

Because he will NEVER make you happy.

He Is using sex to make you feel undesired and perpetually insecure.

He is mean with money, even though he earns more than you.

Add potential children to the mix and you'll be truly on your own. If he doesn't support you now, he certainly won't be the father he ought to be.

Plus the dead eyes thing....?? Makes my skin crawl just trying to visualize it.

Hey OP. I think it sounds like you've got a really good handle on yourself, your self awareness and what you want from life, which is incredibly admirable and something I think a lot of people would like to have as nailed down as you do!

From the sounds of it, you're not getting the things you want in your life from this relationship, and I suspect that over time, and with the addition of children (I'm sorry for your struggles in TTC so far) you might end up shrinking your want list to fit what you're getting, and that's so desperately unfair when your want list is so reasonable. Inevitably, you'll end up shrinking too, to fit the space you've been allocated by your partner and I am so, so fucking fed up of seeing wonderful, whole, technicolour women being shrunk or chopped down to a size that's convenient and manageable for their boring, bland, small minded partners.

The cons list doesn't have to be terrible, or the worst anyone else has ever seen. It just has to be enough for you to look at and say 'actually, you know what? Nah. This is not for me.' You don't have to justify it to anyone else.
Good luck xxx

Leave him and I'd put money on your TTC troubles not reoccurring with a different man!

@Teaandtoast35 Something feels "off" with this. Has he always been like it? There is more to this than what the OP has said so far. "Dead eyes" aren't "normal". I DON'T say this lightly - its WAY over said on here but is he depressed? Anxious? Autistic? We are missing something here.

I ask because I am picking up a few things here...

Uncomfortable at a social function - whilst not a big red flag (its not the only symptom of a problem), people with social anxiety or autism are much less tolerant of being in these situations. Did he have periods of time when he was more outgoing and sociable?

Sexual disinterest (?) - some people can want sex but not feel able to do it for a variety of reasons. I'm curious what that is about. Often its an intimacy issue, anxiety or medication use. Again has this always been the case?

Dead-eyes - Okay, does this happen only when you say something he doesn't like or does he get that alot? When I've been very depressed I've been told I look at people like I am looking "through" them and my pupils become so large that my eyes look almost totally black. Does this vary moment to moment? Does he dissociate (you may not know, if it happens quickly and you aren't sure what to look for)? I've been told that I practically disconnect when feeling depressed to the point that I may well have left my body.

Enthusiastic about what he loves - too much?

From what you have written it seems like this is a somewhat new thing for him which lead me to think maybe he has something going on underneath that you don't know about. The things you describe don't sound "normal" and if he is not always like that I suspect it isn't him being wilful and avoiding - he may look fine outwardly but inside he may well have an array of things going on you can't get to just by asking him.

If you want more info drop me a message :)

What are you getting at @Burgoo? OP doesn't owe it to any man to stay to try and 'fix' him. If there's something wrong, he owes it to her to pursue a resolution.

If you want kids and have the means to go it alone through IVF then do that. I wouldn't get tied to this man, he sounds hostile

30 years ago, I don't think anyone would have listed doing the washing up as a pro to a relationship !

How times change

He wanted you to pay 50p for painkillers while you were miscarrying?

That is all you need to know. That is who he is.

Run.

Didn’t read the list. As soon as you have start making a pros and cons list it’s an obvious no from me.

@bumpytrumpy what an insensitive comment. Yes I think the OP deserves much better but linking as you put it her TTC troubles to this relationship is a bit off.

@Teaandtoast35 seriously it is jumping off the screen how much better your life could be without this guy in it. While you're with him you effectively block off your chance of meeting the right person, or of living a more fulfilled single life, because this relationship can't be fulfilling you.

I'm very sorry for your losses 💐

The "dead eyes" / falling asleep thing gives me the absolute creeps!
How absolutely horrible and completely disrespectful! It sounds psychopathic!

Yes @ValerieDoonican — to dying a little inside. And I think I’m a little dead inside and it makes things harder.
@ChiefWiggumsBoy I think you’ve summed it up. I really wish it wasn’t this way. I literally didn’t realise at all until the other week. A mumsnetter on a thread recommended the book Why Does He Do That? And it was talking about what you mentioned, that controlling men can be lovely until you cross the line and then they punish you. And it’s more on purpose than you think. And then I listened to him in an argument and realised he wasn’t trying to solve it with me, he was trying to shut it down and leave the room, using any means. Telling me I was grieving, placating me, saying we didn’t have time for the discussion right now. And I couldn’t believe it — it was just like the book said. It was so scary. Before, I thought he was very loving but had picked up some bad behaviours from (a difficult) childhood. Now I realise there’s a kind of belief system beneath all the behaviours. Commenters on this thread and the other (I also posted in Relationships) have described it in various ways. But there’s scorekeeping and punishment going on.
And yes, I really find it very hard to think I could be on my own missing my babies. We both love them and miss them and there’s no one else who will ever feel the same.
Thank you @SpookyPanda. I think that’s what I’d do. I have a lovely family and I’ve always loved kids. I feel like I’ve spent more of my life on men than I ever meant to, and a big part of what made me finally wake up to this behaviour was thinking “if I spent my time and energy on making babies alone and taking care of my own career instead of his, how much better might things be?”
Although I think in the end it’s going to come down to that it’s impossible to go on like this.
We are about to start counselling @FlowerArranger @MatildaTheCat and I was thinking the same. Your point Flower about sex feels right… and ouch.
@SnackyOnassis Thank you so much for your comment. I was worried people would just say “you’re stupid! What are you doing?!” But your post was so kind. I also know some of those Technicolor women who are greyer than they truly are, and I never thought I would be one. It turns out knowing about it doesn’t prevent it from happening to you. My dad is a bit like this tbh — not all of the above but shouty and moody. And I never wanted to live like that. But I’ve stumbled onto the same type of person twice now, and I wonder if it’s because I think I “know they’re good really” because of my dad.
@ValerieDoonican this: I agree that he doesn't want to 'be bothered' and not just likes, but expects things easy for him, and to run his way only. It does sound like he will step up if he thinks you are corss, because he doesn't want to lose whatever you supply him in life. But it doesn't come naturally to him and he only does it because he "has" to, not because he gets genuine joy from your happiness. felt very true. I listened to him talk about work today and was animated and said how great it sounded but then when I told him about something at work that was great and happened to me today his voice was so steady and he just said “that’s good” and it felt so strange. And your comment about not getting genuine joy from my happiness seems to click with that… because I would have been really excited for him if my news had been his.

Thank you everyone, sorry for my long message. My head feels in knots and I know grief is part of those knots. All year I have been so down and not had the energy to even think about this. It’s a lot to kind of “wake up” and see, and I really appreciate you taking the time to help me understand what I’m looking at and sort through what to do.

@Teaandtoast35
No relationship should be this difficult.
Don't waste any more years with this man.

This

Do you have time to leave him and meet someone else and possibly have a family without needing IVF alone?

This is only my personal experience and opinion but I had issues with conceiving (male factor) rounds of IVF, 7 MCs, death of first child at a few months old and still I continued to TTC with DH despite having a lot of the issues you have listed in your OP and not being very happy in the relationship. I often wonder if "someone up there" was desperately telling me not to have children with this man, and not a day goes by when I don't wish I had listened to that warning.

It sounds like the cons far outweigh the pluses in your relationship so I would really reconsider if I were you.

Run. Away. Very fast.
You deserve better. He sounds selfish and mean and like he wants to be the only child in this relationship.

Walk away now. There are far better men out there to have a real meaningful relationship with.

@Teaandtoast35 - do I understand you correctly........ you are about to start COUPLES counselling?

No, no, no - absolutely not!

He will turn it into another tool hurt you with. And there is a very real risk that he'll succeed in manipulating the counsellor.

You have to have counselling ON YOUR OWN. I cannot emphasize too much how risky it would be for you to engage in joint therapy with him.

This 100x.
I can picture what he’s like from your description and it gives me the creeps tbh. The coldness, faking falling asleep, blank face, making an atmosphere, diet obsession, claiming not to have time - all this points to an emotionally cold and shallow man with a streak of cruelty. The cons outweigh the pros at least 10 to 1 in impact I would say.
This really isn’t a healthy relationship and I believe it would be a huge, huge mistake to have a child with him. I can’t imagine how cold and emotionally neglectful he’d be as a father.
I think you know this relationship isn’t doing you any good. I hope you can find someone who makes you happy.