To think the so called Uinionist party are the most devisive of them all!

[abstractplantpot]

Conservatives and the DUP! both parties who claim to believe in the "Union" Yet both doing a great job at convincing the rest of us we would be better off out of the mess that is Westminster! AIBU for wanting a Border poll in NI?

@StrataZon That's how I feel. I wonder is it a matter for public record how they would legislate or manage an independent scotland? Would they seek to rejoin the EU?

YANBU, this administration is fucked up. However, I'm not keen. I'm a soft Unionist and would rather see an us remain in the UK with the Protocol for a while to see how it works.

A border poll will come and I would like us to be more stable when it happens.

"Soft Nationalist" here too!!

I think it is much too soon for a straight border poll ... on both sides, too many people alive that still have raw memories of what happened, coupled with a younger generation who don't know what it was really like and could be persuaded into some glorified conflict.

Also, there is no proposals on what the outcome of a border poll would offer. There will be many proposals.. depending on which party/ government makes the proposals.

The best option is a "United People" where our politics are fought on social issues that are common. When the best Northern Ireland is worked for, Nationalise or Unionists will not feel threatened and would be accepting and benefit from a unique position as part of a United Kingdom / United Ireland that would be recognised and supported world wide.

In recent years, I'm less convinced the ideal solution is fully UK or fully United Ireland.
There is no utopia where we will be equal to a Dublin centric economy and political power base... just ask the folks from Donegal, Kerry or the West how it is now. Similarly, we will never have equal status to the powerful London based financial services centered UK powerhouse - again, talk to the "Northeners" in Newcastle, Carlisle etc.

The unfortunate situation is that there is little empathy for neighbours. I accept my friends and neighbours will want to vote DUP/UUP and march on the 12th July and be British citizens. That will never magically change after a border poll.
All I ask is that neighbours equally accept I can enjoy Gaelic football, the Irish language and not be a Royalist ... but that does not make me a diehard Republican and a threat to them.

I feel sad that people will want to taunt "the other side" with songs, banners and confrontation. But some people will always do this... some to deliberately cause offence and some may s not even realise they cause offence. I think sometimes the media thrives on devision as it gives them a headline but ultimatly gives fuel to those pushing their own agenda. Again, this works equally on both sides.

I think the best solution has yet to be proposed... but maybe it is an evolution from where we are now... with a self governed Northern Ireland with equal relationship with UK and Irish governments.

It would automatically reverse Brexit and bring the UK back into the EU, like German reunification did for the former East Germany.

Better for the UK just to apply to rejoin; this idea is a non-starter as no fool in Ireland would vote for it, nor would the Irish government agree to waste money on it.

Yes an independent Scotland would seek to join the EU. That's the whole basis that SNP are promoting a 2nd referendum, we were taken out against our will and most Scottish people are gutted.

However they think vote for independence and we'll be back in EU.
The problem is it's not going to be as simple as that (it never is!)
It would take several years to extricate ourselves from the Union, and then we would need our own currency and meet all the financial targets required before applying for EU membership, then join the queue. It will take years!

We can very easily say the same about Provisional Sinn Féin, you know. Starting with them crashing Stormont for 3 years, their continued attempts to justify murder and their history of murder too. The Republican Movement is highly divisive and you know it.

The Nationalist SNP is also divisive in Scotland.

Politics around the world has become divisive. The United States is another example and Spain is another.

I work in Government in the Republic, but some of my remit is around the shared/all Island initiative so I meet regularly with my NI counterparts. I really feel for them having no executive in place to sign off and approve major decisions needed to progress policies. We are so far ahead of them on key area of policy development and implementation through no fault of theirs. It must be very hard to keep up morale when so little can be progressed. Whatever about an UI, I don't have strong views either way, I just wish they had a working Government to support the people.

Disingenuous.

Provisional Sinn Féin IS the Republican party in Northern Ireland.

The SDLP are NOT Republicans.....they're NATIONALISTS. 🤔

@DownNative SF make no bones about wanting to be out of the Union. But the DUP and Conservatives, despite claiming to be pro-Union have been and are the biggest threat to it.

@DownNative Nationalism is almost always divisive.
Look at Trump and Make America Great Again at the expense of other places in the world

Is there a unionist party in Northern Ireland that is also loyalist? In the same way that there can be a nationalist party that is Republican?

The point is the divisive attitudes goes both ways and that's very clear to see by the reasonable observer.

The biggest stumbling block for a united Ireland has always been and remains Provisional Sinn Féin. There's no doubt about that. It really speaks volumes they didn't manage a meaningful increase in the previous Stormont Election and got the same number of seats also.

That would be the PUP, a marginal party.

Sinn Féin might market themselves as Nationalist, but they aren't one. They're still Republican as their behaviour demonstrates.

@sliverviking. I would love to see a society were I could live where I do now and not have to change the subject or lie before I could tell my neighbours I went to a Catholic Grammer school. They would be appalled. I don't really socialise with them as I have too much going on in my life but when I do they are so intolerant
of change or the other side of the community. Around the middle of May they start preparing for the 12th and in recent years that has become more of a visual prep. Flags everywhere and zero regard for those of us in the community (however small a number) who do not subscribe to this way of thinking.
I am beginning to resent this place I live in because it's a pure embarrassment. The tribal voting means things will never really change. There are too many people who do not see the link between politics and their own lives. Until they start actually looking at how issues such as health housing etc are decided and begin to hold their politicians to account by not repeatedly voting for them then we are doomed to this sectarian loop.

feeling very down with the world today - Can you tell?

Yanbu but remember unionists parties are a bit like HR in a big company.

They're there to protect the interests of England and only England, nowhere else matters. Anywhere outside of England exists only to support England or to exploit for England's benefit.

The idea we in Northern Ireland are regarded as being in low regard by the population of Great Britain isn't really borne out in data.

The 2022 British Social Attitudes Survey concludes:

"People in England would prefer Scotland to
remain in the UK. At the same time, and in contrast to the position throughout the ‘Troubles’ in Northern Ireland, more people in Britain would prefer Northern Ireland to remain in the UK than believe it should unify with the rest of Ireland."

It also reflects the willingness of the UK Government to propose legislation to unilaterally rip up parts of the Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol. This doesn't suggest a willingness to offload NI. On the contrary, it suggests the UK Government and population want the current Union to remain as it currently is.

Last time I voted there was no party called 'Provisional Sinn Fein' on the ballot paper. You're being inflammatory @DownNative as per usual.

@DownNative or maybe it reflects a conservative government who are willing to offer anything regardless of it effect on the rest of the country so long as it keeps their DUP mps happy so they can rely on their votes in the HOC. Decisions they make to appease the DUP have little to no effect on them so what the hell! Give them
what they want.

I'm a Catholic Unionist and I've never had that kind of issue. It's the reverse for me where I didn't let on to the clearly Republican neighbours where a relative used to live that we were all Catholic Unionists. It was an PIRA area which used to be mixed before Provo intimidation forced Protestants out. They never knew my relative's Catholic brother was also in the British Army either.

But I've zero problems telling a Unionist or Loyalist I'm a Catholic. The dividing line isn't really your religious background.....it's your political views.

Living in GB, I don't know anyone who let's others outside family know what their political views are. Just do the same thing. Its not lying.

Are you denying they are Provisional Sinn Féin?

The other one is Republican Sinn Féin.

Two different parties as you well know which demonstrates my statement is factual. 🤔

A border poll is the absolute last thing NI needs. We need several generations of boring stability before considering any constitutional changes, which is why Brexit was such a disaster.

Oh, look! They even call themselves Provisional Sinn Féin on their own website. 🤦‍♂️

@DownNative
Neither of those names are names of the biggest political party in NI. You can refer to it whatever way you want but it doesn't make it true.

I've never heard of a current party called "Provisional SF". When did that happen? I thought it was the other way around, Provisional SF became just Sinn Fein. But stirring is going on......

Down Native is probably Arlene Foster.

A very good Unionist died recently, David Trimble. A good man who helped bring peace, despite his Unionist beliefs. That is the measure of a good man. RIP.

Feeling very down with the world today - can you tell?

Yes @abstractplantpot.