I know he's not naughty but what do I do

[freespirit333]

I'm posting in AIBU for traffic. I've learned more about neurodiversity from reading Mumsnet than anywhere else so I'm hoping I'll get some words of wisdom.

My DS is in year 2, about to turn 7. I've wondered since he was 3 whether he is neurodiverse and I have completely accepted it in the last year or so. When he just turned 3 it was a few comments from pre school - not listening, playing alone, defiance. He settled well into the nursery class at school (so he was 3, nearly 4 at this age) and then lockdown happened so he was at home until reception. Reception seemed fine at first too, at his October parents' evening his teacher said he doesn't concentrate on the mat "but that's his age". We actually saw a paediatrician that winter as I had referred him for assessment via the health visitor when he was at the pre school. As we didn't have many concerns at that point, and his teacher hadn't mentioned anything, the paediatrician discharged him.

I started wondering again towards the end of reception as his teacher said he makes random noises in class. I noticed in a club that all the other children were looking at the coach when they were talking, whilst DS was looking anywhere else, fiddling with the equipment etc. I asked the SENCO at school to observe him, she also noticed that he never appears to be listening, however takes it in as he can answer questions. This is has been the theme throughout - he doesn't look as if he is listening when teachers are making presentations to the whole class, but he must have as the knowledge is there.

I didn't much like his Y1 teacher, she was known for being strict and labelled him as a naughty boy, but didn't communicate much of this to me until I raised it when DS himself told me he is always on the storm cloud for being naughty. I told her that I suspected ND but I don't think she ever made any allowances and I was glad when he finished.

He's now in Y2, the teacher is really different. I haven't had any feedback until today, which is parents' evening (morning!). She said that he gets up to wander around when he should be sitting and listening as a whole class (he's ok when he's on task, in their groups). He gets frustrated when told he can't get up or told to sit down, and is sometimes rude as a result. She said she can see he is a lovely boy, with a big heart, very sensitive, and he apparently always seems to realise quickly if he's done/said something he shouldn't, he says sorry etc. Academically he is doing well, his reading and writing are fine. She said he's really enthusiastic about things that he enjoys like books, reading etc. She was so lovely and I can see he's in good hands, but I don't know where to go from here. I have asked what strategies they've tried to stop the wandering around, she said they've tried doing the whole class presentations on the mat or at the tables, but neither seems to have worked.

I just don't know where to go from here. We have re-referred DS for an ASD/ADHD assessment already, but the waiting list is over 2 years, and really what will a diagnosis achieve anyway. His teacher this year is great and hasn't labelled him as naughty as she says she can see he's not to blame, almost as if he can't help it. It's not affecting his learning at the moment, and he has friends too. But I'm so worried that this will change, and I just struggle with the whole idea. DS has been through really difficult phases at home but they're always phases, I think overall he is a good boy, he says sorry freely when he's been cheeky or rude. He doesn't have any of the usual ASD challenges around sensory stuff or rigidity. He is very loud and can be on the go a lot - in a restaurant he needs to be entertained actively until the food arrives. But equally I wouldn't say he's hyperactive, and the fact that he can concentrate when "on task" also makes me think it's not ADHD.

If any of this sounds like any of your DC, I'd really appreciate some advice.

Sounds as tho the school aren’t doing as much as they can. They need to give him movement breaks, fidget toys, foot rollers etc. they can do all that sort of thing without a diagnosis

It sounds like my son. He has inattentive type ADHD. So he's not hyperactive, but his concentration is an issue. He doesn't look like he's listening, but he usually takes it in, or sometimes needs to be told things separately after if he's been distracted. He needs nudging more often than usual to keep on track of work etc. He can get hyper focused on things that he loves - he's also autistic so that can become an all consuming obsession.

He's home educated now, but the best teacher he had at school let him sit next to her on the carpet when she was talking to the class, with a fidget toy, and then spoke to him after to check he'd understood what they were doing. He sat on a table with no one either side of him so if he needed to jiggle around on his seat he didn't end up bumping into others etc. I know others at the school had wobble board things on their seats to help them, not sure why he didn't.

This was before he was diagnosed, so the teachers should be able to help by doing these things.

Thankyou @Brendabigbaps (good name). The issue must be with sitting with nothing to do but listen as he listens well at his swimming lesson, when he's in the water/hanging on the edge to listen. So that's a good suggestion, thanks. He sits still to watch TV and in the cinema, although he's slouchy and moves round.

There are three subtypes of ADHD - the hyperactive type which is the classic/commonly stereotyped version, an inattentive type which has less of the standard hyperactivity type symptoms - more distractability, disorganisation, etc and a combined type with elements of both.

the fact that he can concentrate when "on task" also makes me think it's not ADHD

Common misconception about ADHD, probably to do with the silly name. Most people with ADHD can concentrate/focus on tasks which catch their interest or stimulate dopamine, it's just that isn't necessarily controllable and doesn't always work when you want it to. I didn't have problems at school until my teens when I had to start organising my own work schedule.

Thanks @bertiebotts. Yes I had read that and he focuses well on lego which he loves! I do find it curious that he concentrates well on all his school tasks though, as surely some of them are boring? But I guess it's still dopamine stimulation?

I'm not trying to deny anything by the way, I am certain he's neurodiverse in some way. I just almost feel like he has a bit of everything rather than one type. DP probably has inattentive ADHD, we both think it, but he was refused an NHS assessment by the mental health team on the basis that he functions well, he has a job and family etc. He may go private just to know but it's so expensive. I also wonder if I'm neurotypical, but like DS I don't fit into one box. DS doesn't have any of the deep interests typically associated with ASD either and is pretty socially aware.

Maybe he's just a bit delayed on some executive functioning skills rather than actually having anything diagnosable?

If he's bright and curious and interested by the school tasks then it might be easy for him to focus on them. That seemed to be the case for me although there were examples of times when I was given a long time to complete a task and then I'd done very little which seemed to produce an exasperated note from my teacher! I remember my sister being called "stubborn" as well because she often did not produce work, because she would freeze and get stuck not knowing where/how to start. Early primary is quite engaging and broken down into individual tasks, which is a strength of the UK school system IMO, and there might not be any/many tasks yet that he has found dull.

@bertiebotts I think you're right, he is really curious about, well, everything! And eager to learn. He doesn't enjoy colouring much so I suspect he just rushes that to get it done. His colouring is still quite messy but I think this is due to not caring that it's really tidy. So the focussing on tasks does make sense.

I was bright in school but a poor student in that I struggled to revise, and my parents and sister were apparently the same. I really struggled when I went to university to organise myself in terms of knowing I had to choose modules, knowing what to do etc. I basically tagged along with my housemate who was on the same course. Yet in work I'm seen as quite organised! But I struggle to concentrate in boring meetings. I move a lot.

This was my first thought too. You can look into flexi seating too, which allows them to rock or rotate safely. You’ll probably have to provide it yourself though.

My nephew was a bit like this.

Turned out he doesn't really have anything clinically significant enough to be diagnosed, and has "grown out of" a lot of the things that at one point were slight concerns. He has a tendency to be sensory seeking but within the normal range for a child his age.

He was very fidgety/moved a lot, appeared to be not listening. For a while in school he sat on a wedge with knobbly bits on, which helped.

What has emerged as he has got older is that he is very bright - as the academic expectations have risen, he has improved - he needed challenge and mental stimulation. He's also become very musical, and his focus on that seems to have generally centered him (i feel like a bit of a twit saying "centered" but oh well).

My mum wrote her master's thesis on early years boys education and the findings were fascinating. While it is true that 'everything girls can do, boys can do' is true, the education system does favour girls - they are more predisposed to sit still, read, colour, draw, write whereas boys learn by doing, moving, exploring. Both are equally as intelligent but boys often get labelled as 'naughty' or even have untrue SN diagnoses slapped on them, simply because they are active, exploratory boys (some diagnoses are true of course, but the SN card should not be played automatically). The fact your son can listen and engage in an activity like swimming shows that he is not a 'naughty boy', he just prefers the practical side of things. He is probably a lad who will never be destined for an office job as an adult but will make a fantastic employee in an area where he can work with his hands, and do something rather than sit still.

I am also leaning towards ADHD rather than ASD as all the behaviours you described fit into ADHD. The fiddling/getting up is actually a coping mechanism that people with ADHD use so that they can focus on what the teacher is saying to them. My DD has various fidget things she uses to keep her hands busy while in school in a lesson. Things like little magnets, or her favourite right now are tangle fidget toys ( see picture). You could try this as an immediate aid for him in class? If you do a search on fidget toys there will be all sorts he can’t choose from and then pick what feels right to him.

Also, both DD and I have hyper focus as part of our ADHD. This is when you can be so absorbed by a task you do not notice anything. Not the need to eat/sleep/toilet, not your surroundings (phone can ring, knock on door, etc, but you won’t hear it), someone can talk to you and you won’t be able to take in what they are saying and are all blank, not the passage of time (mine usually last 16hrs). So this hyper focus is not controllable and is a type of hyperactivity only of the mental sort rather than physical.

It also affects organisation…

I would get a private diagnosis if you can as that will include a list of accommodations the school can implement for his type of ADHD. Then you can get an EHCP pretty quickly. It will also include any recommendations for ADHD medication which can be life changing.

Look up high performance kids. He may be bored!

Oops forgot photo. Tangle fidget toy

Thanks everyone, I've been very emotional reading your responses, I was also very emotional with his teacher, poor thing.

DP has the movement thing. Whatever he's doing, whether he's with just me and the DC, either of our families, friends etc, he has to get up, go to the toilet, go and do a "task". I've known it for ages but obviously now it's all clicking together. He says it's a mental and physical thing, almost like an itch that needs to be scratched.

Thanks for the image of the toy @Discovereads , DS loves that kind of thing. He wasn't so keen on a fidget spinner but I think he might like that.

@AloysiusBear I was hoping DS would grow out of it too. It wouldn't necessarily have convinced me that he was 100% neurotypical but I really thought it would improve, as apparently it did as Y1 went on. I was never told he wandered that year, it was much more vague ie "he struggles to concentrate on the mat, hopefully this will improve as he matures" etc.

He was very difficult over the summer holidays, cheeky and rude, full of attitude. Since going back to school he's been brilliant so I naively assumed he was being really well behaved in school too. He's brilliant in so many ways, really thoughtful, as I said in my OP he readily says sorry off his own back, he thinks of others all the time and puts himself in their shoes (just little things I notice but things like, X will like that because their favourite colour is red/they like spiderman" that sort of thing). It's what's made me think he may not have ASD (that was always my hunch when he was younger as he played alone in preschool and didn't seem interested in friends, but that changed before he turned 4).

Oh another thing I've noticed recently (sorry, I'm thinking out loud) is that he will do something, when he's bored quite often or maybe feeling a bit ignored, and then obviously regret it. He's been in trouble for it as a few times he's hurt someone. He doesn't fight as such (other than with siblings) but he will, for example, throw a stick, it will hit someone, and regret it immediately - almost looks surprised that it hit the person, even though from the observer it looks like he is aiming at them or at least near them. He did it in the summer with a water pistol, hurt his friend in the ear because it was point blank range, but I'm almost positive it's not from a malicious point of view, almost as if he wants to see what happens. We get very exasperated because it makes him look downright mean.

I wonder if you could ask school to involve the educational psychologist? They would observe then give school advise on helping your son in lessons.

@HOTHotPeppers the SENCO has been involved, she was ok, there is now a new one. They never make suggestions for any accommodations though! I think the Y2 teacher only tried him sitting at the table versus on the mat because I suggested this last year (I met with his Y1 teacher at the end of the year and his new teacher came too).

Do you mean contacting an EP outside of school? I think that would definitely help but I imagine I'd have to go privately.

School need to do more to help him.

can they put him on an sen support plan? Have they made any reasonable adjustments for his needs?

id work with school to come to some kind of agreement. If you can make changes this year to make Improvements, I’d hope they’d be able to go take those forward to next year.

my eldest is in the queue for diagnosis. It’s been a long wait already & while he’s doing ok academically, he is still struggling.

don’t let school fob you off. Ask for a meeting with them to go through how they can support him.

So my knowledge is limited as it is only based on my experience with my own DS. But at our school the EP is brought in by the school but they are not part of the school, they are employed by the LA. This is separate to the school SENCO.

My teen son has ADD. He is either hyper focused with lots of energy or can not focus and lethargic. Sometimes I talk to him in a quiet room (ie no distractions) and he can see that I'm talking but I can tell that he can't process the words that I'm saying. It's like someone who doesn't speak English making eye contact and showing the social signs that they are listening but you know that they don't understand a word that they are saying. He also likes to walk around the room while he talks to me. Makes me a little nervous as I like to sit on my arse but it helps him
comcentrate.
Socially he is very popular and academically he's fine. His teachers always say that he has a good attitude so he's not had any grief from them. His teachers in primary said that he was very fidgety but they said that he wasn't the only one and I think his late August birthday meant that they accepted he would be more likely to be immature iyswim. His year 2 teacher used to hold up a triangle symbol when children were being fidgety on the carpet. She said it was so that she didn't have to interrupt the flow of her lesson by asking the kids to stay still.

It sounds like he needs fidget toys (and an acceptance by the teacher that he's listening even though he's fidgeting!) plus a Move n Sit cushion which adds a bit of movement to his sitting. Also the teacher can build movement into the day - take this note to the class next door, hand out the pencils or books etc

A lot of what you have written mirrors my DS at that age. He was diagnosed as having an ASD aged 7.
The Senco needs to be putting strategies in place to prevent/tackle the unwanted behaviours. DS's school didn't always do this very well - it very much depended on the staff members actioning the strategies day to day. DS was very bright and was often one step ahead of them!

Things were a bit better once he got to Secondary school probably because the SEN had a team and the school had embedded disciplinary measures - even DS was amazed at how quickly his misdemeanors were reported back to the SEN team. He was also much better in lessons he actually enjoyed. Team games in PE always were pretty disastrous but gym work and swimming were fine.

I'm sure DS will say that school days were definitely not the happiest days of his life.

Once in 6th form he fared even better as they were treated more like adults and he only had to study subjects he'd chosen.

He went on to University (moving 3 hours away) and studied a BA and a Masters and is currently holding down an office job helping and advising people - not something we'd ever have anticipated all those years he was in school.

Not sure it's seeking a diagnosis that is the important thing - it's the strategies used - which can be implemented now - but it may be that you need the diagnosis to get the support.

I would recommend the book ‘Sensory Solutions in the classroom’ by Monique thoonsen and carmen lamp.

We are all sensory beings and have our preferences for the environment. Some of us find certain sensory input too much (over responsive) and others need more from the environment to feel calm and alert (under responsive)

sounds like your son seeks more vestibular input to feel calm and alert and able to learn. Have a look at wobble/ move n sit cushions, standing desks, Therabands for the chair, movement breaks/ activation station in the classroom, lots of opportunities for movement. Sounds like the school need some training on sensory and how to support as a whole class approach, what’s the local offer from the NHS? In my area we have a sensory pathway that does school training and offer virtual events for school staff and parents/carers. There’s loads of free resources online.

the book above is fantastic and has strategies for every part of the school day. I would also recommend looking at sensoryladders.org for some free training.

Your son shouldn’t need a diagnosis to have the right support in the classroom. It’s so frustrating that schools often say they can’t do these things without an EHCP or medical recommendations but why?! I’m an OT and find a lot of my time is spent writing reports that basically just advise everything that parents have spent months requesting school to put in place. You’re the expert of your own child but yes, some of the resources mentioned above might be helpful to go through and then discuss with the SENCO.

A few of our foster children (6 - 8 yr old boys) who were ND would struggle with sitting still at a table because their feet couldn't touch the floor. We found that putting a small stool under the table to rest their feet on really helped - maybe a feeling of being more "grounded" or safer on the chair perhaps?