Prisoner morality TW

[scorpiogirly]

I've come across this a lot and given some thought to it.

When it comes to a paedophile going to prison, they're always at very high risk from other prisoners.

These prisoners could be the most violent murders etc yet they will Jo stand for sexual offences against children.

To me, crimes against children are the absolute worst.

AIBU to somewhat admire these prisoners for their intolerance to this sort of thing?

There are separate wings and sometimes separate prison's for sex offenders.

I have no interest or concern for their welfare.

To those who say sex offenders deserve to die - do you think these people were born evil? In my more than 20 years experience working with offenders, I can tell you now that every single sex offender I have ever worked with (and that's many hundred) has a history which explains their actions. They have been subject to circumstances which shaped them to be the person they became. Society allowed that to happen.

Yes, be sickened and shocked by the crimes. Yes, hate the crimes. But, remember that the person who committed those heinous crimes was once a small child themself, and society needs to start taking responsibility for allowing those children to endure and be shaped into the kind of people that commit those crimes.

We are all responsible for not doing enough to support children, protect them and prevent them ending up as the adults that commit horrendous crimes (of all kinds).

You admire murders?
What if the prisoner who murdered a pedo, is also a child killer, still a hero?
Honestly, how low can we sink as a nation?

This.

There's often an.opportunity Ian Huntley has been targeted a couple of times.

I will say this, and it's only my opinion. I believe that paedophilia cannot be helped. I think they are born that way. But I do believe that acting on it can be helped.
It's not just your opinion. I watched a documentary where they monitored brain activity of pedophiles alongside straight and gay men by using different photographs.

I truly believe they're born predisposed with an attraction to children.

There are inactive pedophiles who fight the urge and try help others stop.

Its something we'll have to acknowledge and treat in the future.

Doesn't excuse their actions.

@Dotjones talks sense. I do feel their sentences are not harsh enough.

And I think the damage done by a child abuser can reverberate through generations. I'm not sure I feel the same about a murder. Please don't get me wrong, murder is horrific, and it affects a lot of people. But I think the generational damage done to someone when they are a child are far worse.

I suspect there are plenty of people who are both the perpetrators of (and of course sadly and separately there are lots of victims of sexual violence) who are in prison for other offences. You can be guaranteed that those types of characters would be happy to project their failings onto other sexual abusers and be the exact type of person who would harm sexual abusers in prison.

If the world was a computer game and I got to write the rules that would be game over for men (or indeed women) who sexually abuse women or children and even men.

Sadly I think the world would have much, much fewer men in it because sexual abuse is absolutely endemic to levels that society simply cannot get to grips with. 1 in 4 women and children being sexually violated means there are far far more perpetrators of sexual violence than we can tolerate accepting.

This proves my previous point. If the offenders were not abused as children, they might not have turned out to be murderers/violent. Obviously not all, but a significant number maybe.

That is what I mean by child abuse actually perpetuates a lot of other offences. It is a root cause. One child abuser can affect the lives of 100 people for the next 100 years.

I’d be more likely to support the death penalty for child rape than I would for murder.

Nobody's asking you to make a choice from two evils @PetraBP.
Murder is murder, whether state sanctioned or not. And once you open those floodgates, where do you think a bloodthirsty press & a populist government would take it next?

@ToooMuchToDo my friend used to work as a psychotherapist in prisons and then on a programme to rehabilitate sex offenders. I don’t know how she did it but she did talk in depth about childhood trauma being the root cause. I was sexually abused as a child and have not become an abuser, I am a woman by the way.

Not all abused children become abusers so what do you think is the trigger for some to go down that route but more importantly what stops abused children not becoming abusers. Plus let’s be honest it is mainly a problem with men because almost all sex offenders are men and of the few women that are is it true that many have been groomed by men in to supporting them.

Regardless of childhood trauma the issue is almost always men, why is their wiring just so different from low level misogynists right up to these very worst examples of human beings.

This literally makes no sense. Unfortunately crimes against children are committed throughout society, and usually by family members.

You can't just say rape is worse than murder. There are so many different kinds of rape and murder. The chopping up, torture and dismembering of a live body before it finally dies is a much more serious murder than Joe thumping Fred at the pub causing him to fall and knock his head and die. A stranger grabbing, attacking and raping a 6 year old child on the street at knife point, is very different from 18year old having sex with a 14/15 year old in the context of a 'relationship'. You can't just box all crimes together as 'rape' or 'murder'.

To be honest, I'd rather be a 14 year old having what I though was consensual sex with my 18 year old 'boyfriend', than be chopped up, tortured and killed by some random. Obviously neither are good, but, if both were sentenced to custody, the 18 year old would be called a sex offender, placed on the vulnerable prisoner wing and hated by the main wing prisoners. The 'murderer' would not be seen as, as bad. That is prion life. It's mad.

Let's not all jump on the band wagon and make sweeping statements about killing all paedophiles or raposts. Life is so much more complex than putting people in boxes like that.

@girlfriend44
I said rarely, Ian Huntley is an extreme example, whoever harmed him would have gained great status in doing so.

The are thousands of men who've committed sexual offences in prisons. I believe in human rights and part of that is being free from harm, that includes people who've committed the worst offences.
Although I think the world would be better off if several people dropped dead, I don't think vigilantism is right.

It's well studied that trying to understand the motive and treat these men is far more preventative of reoffending then surrounding them in shame and violence.

Sexual offending is complex and them being beaten in prison does nothing to stop offending.

Societies attitudes towards women and sex needs to change and with that a reduction in sexual offending. Courts needs to improve conviction rates and massive increases in budgets to social care services are needed.

But that's just my two pence on the subject.

I'm sorry you experienced abuse Glisters...

You are right that not all those abused go on to abuse (I've also been abused and haven't become an abuser), but pretty much every abuser has been abused.

The differences between those that go on to abuse and those that don't are multiple and complex. Often it is about the protective factors around at the time. People who grow up not to abuse have often received messages growing up that it is wrong to abuse. They may also have had some positive relationships with a parent/Guardian/schoolteacher/parents friend, they may have had a good education experience. There are so many possible protective factors or different paths people could have taken.

Often with those who go on to abuse they may not have had protective factors, they may have been repeatedly told they are bad and believed it to the point they then own this belief as true and grow up to be 'bad' as they've always been told they are. Or maybe they were told as kids 'you want it, you are asking for it, kids are so desperate for it' etc.. with no counter messages, so they grow up to believe children want sex and are sexual beings and enjoy it. Or maybe they had severe exposure to porn as kids, witnessed and experience ed sexual abuse and had no alternative messages growing up to believe it's normal and everyone has sexual contact with kids they just don't 'admit it'.

There are so so many factors which influence the directions we take in life, the examples above are based on real stories. We need to help the child victims of crime (abuse, sexual abuse, neglect, domestic violence, trafficking, emotional abuse), provide them with protective factors and guide them in positive directions if we want to prevent future crime and/or mental health problems further down the line.

The bit I don't understand is saying that people are born as paedophiles and therefore cannot help their attraction to children but can choose not to act on it and set up support groups for people similar to themselves. I almost hear admiration because they 'choose' not to act on it or to help others fight the urge and sympathy for how difficult that must be.

Isn't every single person in the same situation?

I am attracted to men. If no men ever wanted to have sex with me ever again, I'd just never have sex again. I wouldn't rape a man. Why would somebody being attracted to children mean that they have to fight the urge to rape them? It's really disturbing. I have never had to fight the urge to rape somebody. Are we suggesting that all straight men who haven't had sex for a while are fighting the urge to rape women they are attracted to?

Well that would incentivise them to kill their victims and so result in more children being murdered. But at least it would make you feel better I guess.

I am attracted to men. If no men ever wanted to have sex with me ever again, I'd just never have sex again. I wouldn't rape a man. Why would somebody being attracted to children mean that they have to fight the urge to rape them? It's really disturbing. I have never had to fight the urge to rape somebody. Are we suggesting that all straight men who haven't had sex for a while are fighting the urge to rape women they are attracted to?

Abuse against women and children is rationalised persistently in every human culture. Your example is one of a billion rationalisations out there from victim blaming, to denial, to minimisation etc etc We have an enormous amount of growing up to do around accepting to tendencies of particularly males to sexually abuse more vulnerable people in society.

Sorry, I know that was slightly off topic, but related to a few previous posts.

I don't think that it's right to think of paedophiles as people who 'can't help' their attraction to children. I suppose that is exactly what the word means, but a 'convicted paedophile' is surely not actually convicted of being a paedophile. They've been convicted of raping or assaulting a child. I don't tend to think of rape and assault as being linked to attraction at all. They are acts of extreme violence.

I wouldn't say that I'd be happy for another prisoner to kill a paedophile. I think that if an imprisoned paedophile was known to me because they had abused a child I know, I'd be glad they'd been killed and not give any thought to the prisoner doing the killing. But then I guess that's why we don't allow the friends and family of victims to decide their fate.

I'd imagine a lot of the time they find new friends in prison they recognise the likeness that unfortunately encourages them.

I think hormone blockers and castration is the best option.

@GlistersisnotGold
Regardless of childhood trauma the issue is almost always men,

While it is true vast majority of child sex abuse is perpetrated by boys/men, it is really more evenly split when you look at all childhood trauma between male/female perpetrators.

(By childhood trauma I am presuming you mean all types of child abuse. )

therubbiliser, sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. I don't think I explained myself very well. I was actually trying to disagree with the idea that men just can't help themselves. I'm not trying to rationalise the idea - I am disturbed and frightened by it.

Given that girls and women are much more likely to be the victims of sexual assault/ sex abuse I find it strange that men are much more likely to be abusers.

If I was caught doing something heinous I’d be looking for an excuse too. I would agree that children need to be protected much better than they are today.

Oh no sorry I didn’t think you were trying to rationalise it. I think others try to rationalise it using what you said.