To think forgiveness is not always necessary in order to fully heal?

[CoachGary]

I'm getting a litte tired of seeing this narrative that you have to forgive in order to move on and heal.

Some things can't be forgiven, and that's OK too IMO.

You're using the wrong word. It isn't forgiveness. It's never forgiveness.

I could use the word Dog to describe my cat if it suited me to do so - but it doesn't make him a small canine. You're using forgiveness to mean acceptance/acknowledgement. That doesn't mean it's forgiving.

Power to you @magma32 I'm nodding away here, reading your words.

my maxim in life is "never let another person live inside your head rent-free". There is an awful lot to be said for placing distance and living a happy life.

I cannot get the "forgiveness" thing, it feels too much like an action that the other person doesn't deserve!

Same it’s seeing the impact and pressure of forgiving and forgetting, often women in my community are told you forgive and be patient. Men who are wronged can wage a war! I’ve had people (men) commit murder in my community and the community gets together to pray for the murderer because it’s so important they get forgiven by god.
No thought for the actual victim and their family and seeking forgiveness from them and no idea if the actual murderer feels bad.
Usually lots of excuses are given.
Then you get lots of ‘reformed’ men in the community walking around with their held held high because y’know they’ve repented.
They don’t seem to have the same tolerance for women doing ‘wrong’ though.
You never hear of reformed women.
They often leave the community as they’ve been ostracised for doing much lesser ‘crimes’ than the men.
So yep I don’t really care what the theory behind forgiveness is, what matters to me is how it’s promoted and practiced on the ground and the unnecessary pressure it puts on victims. Like I said there are better ways to heal without thinking about whether you’ve forgiven someone who has harmed you. No matter what they say, you can be completely healthy and happy without needing to forgive someone.

@CoachGary It doesn't matter if you keep doing it or not. Someone who molested a child could still technically get into heaven by being sorry and asking God for forgiveness. I personally think that's a sick thing to be taught.

I take it that if you think these people are incapable of redemption you'd vote to bring back the Death Penalty?

@Fromthedarkside I don't really stand one way or the other on the death penalty to be honest. Morally I don't think "an eye for an eye" is the right way to go about things, however I don't think that people like child molesters deserve an opportunity for redemption, religiously or otherwise.

@CoachGary I don't think that people like child molesters deserve an opportunity for redemption, religiously or otherwise.

OK, then why not give them the 'long drop' before they have a chance to mend their ways, and send them to Hell a lot faster?

I'm curious to know what you think should happen to them?

@NeverDropYourMooncup you are not the gatekeeper of what constitutes forgiveness. Why do you keep calling people on this thread wrong for their differing beliefs? I completely 100% accept that your definition of what constitutes forgiveness is different to mine but it would be really nice if we could agree to disagree.

@Fromthedarkside
Because I don't think an eye for an eye is morally correct, like I've said. But according to your beliefs, if they asked for God's forgiveness, then it would send them to heaven a lot faster, not hell.

This isn't a discussion on the death penalty, it's about forgiveness and how it can be toxic in certain situations to push on the victim.

@CoachGary But according to your beliefs, if they asked for God's forgiveness, then it would send them to heaven a lot faster, not hell.

That is not correct. If they are genuinely remorseful they can be forgiven - not otherwise.
You said " I don't think that people like child molesters deserve an opportunity for redemption, religiously or otherwise". As long as they are alive they have the opportunity for redemption. As you don't agree with that then surely the answer is to execute them? That's your logic.

This isn't a discussion on the death penalty, it's about forgiveness and how it can be toxic in certain situations to push on the victim.

Nowhere has it been said on this thread that forgiveness should be pushed on the victim. I don't know where that came from?

Of course it's not necessary to forgive. You're absolutely right.

@Fromthedarkside
How would someone show "genuine remorse" of molesting children, in your opinion? And even if that was possible, you still believe that they would be "forgiven" by your god and be let into heaven.

If you're taking about religious redemption, then that's something I'm not really able to discuss as I think the notion of 'sinning' is ridiculous, as I'm not religious.

If you mean in the sense of being able to do good to outweigh the bad, then no amount of good deeds would ever make a child molester a better person. I dont think that person should ever be allowed back into society.
You're the one who brought the death penalty into it, not me.

I started the thread because certain people (mostly Christians in my experience) push the notion that forgiveness is necessary in order to heal and move on, which can be toxic. You didn't get that?

@Fromthedarkside bringing the death sentence into this discussion is quite goady.

just because some of us don't see the need to forgive in order to be able to move forward, doesn't mean we want to get rid of the perpetrator of a 'crime'.

the point is, it shouldnt be something the victim of the misdemeanour even needs to think about - they have enough to cope with. It isn't down to us to be burdened with the judgement about redemption or otherwise. That something for the perpetrator to deal with - quite frankly I wouldn't give a flying 4X whether they were redeemed or not, NMP not my problem!

Completely agree. Forgiveness and acceptance are two different things and it's acceptance that's needed to move on and heal IMO.

OP
I started the thread because certain people (mostly Christians in my experience) push the notion that forgiveness is necessary in order to heal and move on, which can be toxic. You didn't get that?

And I have explained Christian forgiveness in some detail, (and it doesn't align with what you have posted above) including this statement - if someone is a terrorist or a child molester then—no matter how penitent he/she may be—they simply cannot be treated as if he had never committed their crimes.

If you don't have any religious beliefs why does it bother you what 'religious' people think?
If people are pushing a notion on you that you don't subscribe to then why engage with them? Why not just walk away and tell them to go and pray to their 'sky fairy'?

So, no, I don't get it.🤔

@Fromthedarkside my brother is an incestuous paedophile who abused me as a young child. My Christian father told the mediator that he and I visited that the problem in my family was that I wasn’t forgiving enough. That shit really really really hurts. That is what the OP is saying.

Oh and no I don’t speak to my father anymore because surprise surprise his monstrously unfair behaviour always has been part of the much bigger problem in my family than just my brother. But I do try to forgive him for his failings and weaknesses.

@daisychain01 bringing the death sentence into this discussion is quite goady.

I disagree.
On 17.10.22 at 14.20 CoachGary said "I don't think that people like child molesters deserve an opportunity for redemption, religiously or otherwise."

Now, as long as people are alive they have the opportunity for redemption (religious or otherwise) so logic dictates that the only way to prevent them getting any kind of redemption is to use capital punishment to permanently remove them.

However, in the same paragraph CoachGary says "Morally I don't think "an eye for an eye" is the right way to go about things," Which contradicts the statement that follows.

I'm confused.
And I think Coach Gary is confused as well.

I’ve never heard this, but describes it perfectly.

The American feminist Andrea Dworkin advocated violence as the appropriate response to make rape, in light of how difficult legal justice is to achieve. I found her justifiable anger so refreshing

Male rape

I don’t forgive my ex partner who continues to try to avoid paying for our daughter, despite his nasty abusive treatment of us for many years, he keeps trying to be nasty from afar. I worked out that evil doesn’t recognise itself - it’s too painful to look in the mirror and say “I am truly a nasty person”, and then deal with how to change that, so consequently he will never change.
that is why I have moved on and made a new life free of him. But I will never forgive what he did and continues to do. Never.

I agree. I also think that somethings are absolutely unforgivable.

It needs to be the right thing for the person involved.

Forgiveness is overrated.

I worked out that evil doesn’t recognise itself - it’s too painful to look in the mirror and say “I am truly a nasty person”, and then deal with how to change that, so consequently he will never change.

That is so so true. That is why I never get too bogged down on the who goes to heaven questions that come up. I believe the people who were incapable of appraising their evil behaviour in life would also be incapable of appropriately appraising with their God so to me it is moot. In theory they could go to heaven in practice they don’t have the appropriate characters to do so.