To think too few people understand the role of insulin with regards to weight loss?

[Redterror]

So I am an advocate of low carb but I know plenty of people who have used slimming world, or weight watchers or any other diet to lose weight. I have seen though people being really negative regards low carb diets and I don't get it.

When you understand how your body deals with different nutrients it because clear that all diets need to lower insulin. How you do this is up to you but ultimately all weight loss diets do it.

When insulin is elevated then you can't burn much fat and instead rely on mostly burning sugar from your diet. If you want to burn mostly fat from your fat cells your insulin needs to be lowered.

People say eat less move more without understanding that for someone who is insulin resistant this is really hard. The body cells stop responding to insulin so stop taking up sugar from the blood. This effectively means the cells feel like they are 'starving' as they can't get enough sugar and this drives hunger signals. It also makes the person feel lethargic and lacking in energy, so exercise is harder.

You can reduce insulin levels by fasting, reducing carbs in the diet, reducing consumption of refined carbohydrates, cutting calories etc but the key is your insulin.

I'm pretty sure every gram of carbs eaten cause cause 4 grams in water retention and glycogen. Anybody who thinks a 1 pound fluctuation in daily weight is fat gain/loss really doesn't understand anything. I can vary by 6 pounds through different points of the day for god sake. 😂

6 lbs?
Wait, if I ate 300 g carbs daily (I think that might be typical), that's 300 x 4g = 1.2 kg/day. In "water & glycogen" Or about 3 lbs Previous poster didn't explain if the carbs x 4g gets expelled again, and if that's a once a day or constant process of elimination.

Is previous poster saying they eat 600g carbs / day to get to 6 lb fluctuation? That would be 3000 kcal/day. In carbs alone. Not many weight loss diets would recommend 3000 kcal/day.

@Reallyreallyborednow

Don’t try and convert me because you arrogantly believe your interpretation of the science of a very complicated subject is the right one

And you called me rude?!

I haven't said my interpretation is the right one - I merely pointed out, as have you that this is a very complicated subject.

Where, on this thread, do you believe I'm trying to convert anyone?

@Againstmachine

This ...

it is that simple if you complicated it it's on you

... is victim blaming.

Weight loss isn't simple - there are many factors that impact on weight loss, scientific as well as emotional. As I said, if it was simple, no-one who wants to lose weight would fail.

It isn't victim blaming it really isnt.

Majority people are fat because they eat too much, if you want to make them out to be victims that's rather pathetic.

Do any of those studies distinguish between people who are pre-diabetic, and those who are not? I think pre-diabetic people are also wanting to lower blood sugar, rather than just lose weight, although I know losing weight will help with the blood sugar problem. But if they've already got insulin resistance, then perhaps they are the ones who particularly need low-carb to lose weight (and possibly to maintain it later?). The books recommending Atkins and other diets at the time often talked about "carb addicts" and things like that, people who really felt cravings for carbs, got symptoms from too many carbs, loved carbs more than other foods, etc., and I suspect were trying to identify those who might be at risk of metabolic disorders or who already had them, because those were the people for whom the diet might work best. The diet then became popular with everyone as a fast means of losing weight, whether or not they particularly needed to keep blood sugar low.

But so many of these studies don't really seem to distinguish between the groups. So if they say low-carb isn't any better than other diets, then I would wonder if all this 'sacrifice' as actually worth it because I miss carbs so much - but on the other hand, if it's really important for lowering pre-diabetes glucose levels and preventing full blown type 2 diabetes and other associated conditions, then I'd try to keep on with it, at least in a moderate form, longer tem - whether or not it was the only/best way to lose weight. But if losing weight by other means had the same ultimate effect on reducing diabetes risk, there would be much more pleasant ways (for me) to do it than low carb. I'm sure some people enjoy the food on low-carb and don't miss the stuff that's cut out as a result, but I don't think I'm one of them!!

It's an eating disorder a lot of the time
But people see it differently. Eat too little - disorder. Eat too much - pathetic

@mapleleafforever

diabetes-resources-production.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/resources-s3/public/2021-05/low-carb-diets-for-people-with-diabetes-position-statement-may-2021.pdf

diabetes UK position statement on low carb diets.

• no benefit in type 1
• type 2 may be beneficial for up to 6 months, but no difference in the long term. Low carb should not be regarded as superior or better
• low carb may have serious affects in children so should not be used.
• the evidence supporting low calorie diets for diabetes remission is more robust.

basically again if a low carb plan works for you great, if another plan does, that’s great too. The overall goal is weight loss- by reducing energy intake.

they also note that low carb diets that consequentially reduce intake of dietary fibre and other nutritional sources, which can increase other health risk (low fibre is linked to bowel cancer increase, for example.

overall recommendation is people should be supported in their choice but weight control is what makes a diet effective wrt diabetes.

@MatchaTea

Thank you for that text, it's really interesting to read the methodology alongside the conclusions.

The carbohydrate–insulin model of obesity theorizes that diets high in carbohydrate are particularly fattening due to their propensity to elevate insulin secretion.

For example, I completely disagree with this premise. I eat low carb because the food is very palatable and because I feel so much better eating in this way. My whole relationship not because I think starchy carbs are particularly fattening.

As a bonus, the excess weight I have put on by being 'tempted' by highly palatable, even addictive manufactured foods which tend to combine fat and starchy carbs, has very slowly melted.

I know it's equally possible to control low weight using a low fat high carb approach. My mother did it all her life. It required constant vigilance and seems to me to be a miserable existence.

I much prefer eating good food which avoids the padding of starchy carbs and which seems to need no effort for me to sustain. I'm so much more peaceful and calm around food without that voice in my head which screams 'eat, now' which I associate with the blood sugar rollercoaster of eating starchy carbs.

I'm so find myself evangelising about low carb exactly because I feel so much better eating in this way. I'd love everyone to try it, to see whether it works for them, too. My relationship with good has never been better, it's quite a load off my mind to be comfortable eating.

Thank you.

That is sort of good news I guess! If I could lose weight by eating less, even if it's really hard, but still occasionally having the things I like, then maybe that would bring down the blood sugar levels so that I don't get worse.

I think the low-carb probably does work for me in terms of weight loss, but it's just so miserable that I don't think it will be sustainable. I was persisting because I thought it would be good for glucose levels even if it didn't cause that much weight loss. Of course I know that I also need to work on attitude and try to find it less miserable, but that is hard!!

I would rather eat a single mince pie for dinner than a full place of chicken and veg, for example...!! Not something I'd do often, but being able to have occasional nice things with other reductions in calories would be a lot more pleasant.

they also note that low carb diets that consequentially reduce intake of dietary fibre and other nutritional sources, which can increase other health risk (low fibre is linked to bowel cancer increase, for example.

Reallyreallyborednow the report you quote states that fibre is a carb that does not raise blood sugar levels so actually the OP is right to focus on insulin levels rather than carb levels.

The Van Tulleken programme I mentioned earlier is reviewed here (don't know if it's still available on iplayer) and the conclusion is that not all carbs are equal.

www.diabetes.co.uk/in-depth/truth-about-carbs-bbc-1-review/

And reducing the argument down to calories in/calories out ignores all the psychological and hormonal issues around weight loss.

@MapleLeafForever

It is interesting for me to know that some people genuinely prefer my mother's low fat approach 😀 and that it really does work better for them. I just rebelled anytime she suggested I consider eating less and proved it by 'eating all the pies .. and sweets and everything else'.

If you could do with some support on your approach to restricting food, you might find something of interest in Gillian Riley's work on taking control of overeating, originally based on her work helping people conquer an addition to smoking. It applies anything I do for my self, where the rewards require a short term 'pain' restrict food or get up out of bed to exercise in return for longer term gain ( or loss of weight).

https://gillianriley.comm*

https://gillianriley.com

No idea where that extra 'm' came from.

the report you quote states that fibre is a carb that does not raise blood sugar levels so actually the OP is right to focus on insulin levels rather than carb levels

that makes no sense. How does fibre not raising blood glucose mean the o/p is right? can you explain please.

did you read the whole report, or just focus on that one thing that backs up your theory?

the report conclusion is that low carb is not better long term for the management of type 2 diabetes. Low carb and low calorie diets show the same benefit long term.

A woman could carry an extra 3-4 pounds premenstrually, as part of her natural cycle, then eat a pizza, or takeaway fish and chips, and easily be up 6 pounds that night, c/- salt alone. A load of soy sauce on green veg could cause a few pounds of water weight c/- the salt content, without the carbs.

The water weight is temporary and is excreted over the following 24 hours or so.

Low carb and low calorie diets show the same benefit long term.

This is a good news story as far as I can see.

Low carb for me means a full load of green veg plus whatever fat and protein I need to make the food palatable. And all the water.

That way of eating is very different to a highly processed diet of protein powder and supplements, which could also be low carb but would absolutely not be for me.

This is a fascinating thread with very useful links. I’ve been overweight for 40 years and have tried every diet going. Low carb with lots of veg and some fruit suits me best in that I enjoy the food and generally am less likely to binge, but despite that I am now 5 stone overweight because I can’t sustain it. What I’ve noticed from recent reading is that once you’re obese it’s very hard for you to lose weight - all sorts of factors kick in to create a feedback loop where your metabolism goes down and your appetite, desire to eat goes up.
Eating shouldn’t be about willpower but modern lifestyles and UPF make it very difficult for many of us.
I am currently reading the obesity code by Joel Greene. On his Insta fame realjoelgreen he has lots of information. I have no idea whether scientifically his work stacks up but it’s interesting - there are various suggestions that sound worth a punt, such as eating apple skins to start each day to boost healthy gut bacteria. all the benefits are in the skin. He has a very big focus on gut health.
has anyone come across him?

Well I saw the GP yesterday and my HbA1C is 36, my GP is happy with the weight loss and glucose control so I'm continuing to low carb.

*I have no idea whether scientifically his work stacks up but it’s interesting - there are various suggestions that sound worth a punt, such as eating apple skins to start each day to boost healthy gut bacteria. all the benefits are in the skin. He has a very big focus on gut health.

has anyone come across him?*

no, but apple skins? Why not just have apples? They’re a quick easy portable on the go breakfast, can anyone really be arsed peeling apples to eat the skin? Plus you’d probably need breakfast on top?

diets have to fit our way of life.

For the purpose of boosting Akkamansia which he claims is v powerful gut bacteria, think of the apple skin as a supplement - it’s feeding your bacteria not you. It’s not your breakfast. The suggestion is to build up to 6 skins a day, I think. Most people wouldn’t want to eat 6 apples. This is a quick fix to boost levels and then boost it occasionally after that, not every day. I managed to find a large bag of organic apples quite cheap so am giving it a go.

You can cook or freeze the apple pulp for other cooking.

It might be a load of rubbish but sounds like it won’t harm me and might help.

A quote from sciencedirect.com
“Increased levels of mucin degrading Akkermansia muciniphila have been found in aged people as compared to younger adults in an Italian cohort (Biagi et al., 2010). Increased levels of Akkermansia spp. in aged people have also been shown in Chinese (Kong et al., 2016), Italian (Biagi et al., 2016; Kong et al., 2016; Rampelli et al., 2020) and South-Korean populations (Kim et al., 2019). Interestingly, the relative abundance of Akkermansia spp. has been shown to be 3-fold more abundant in healthy elderly American subjects as compared to non-healthy elderly American subjects (Singh et al., 2019). Similar phenomenon was shown in an American elderly population, where relative abundance of Verrucomicrobia significantly correlated with cognitive test performance, being higher in cognitively intact elderly population as compared to cognitively impaired elderly population (Manderino et al., 2017). Moreover, better sleep quality has also been associated with higher proportions of Verrucomicrobia in American elderly subjects (Anderson et al., 2017).”

I wouldn't say I particularly enjoy the "eating less" approach, and I certainly struggle with it, but I do like the fact that I can occasionally have what I like to eat - it doesn't feel quite as depressing as a long term outlook, somehow. Of course actually doing it is another matter, and sustaining it is still difficult for me. I'll check out the book and see.

I"ve lost a few pounds so far by upping my exercise (mostly walking though) and eating lowish carb, which probably means less overall, but miss a lot of foods and social occasions where I might eat those foods, and I miss baking! I haven't got a scale though so I don't know how much (I got rid of it in previous attempts where I too easiliy got obsessed), but I might get one again now that I am in a better place. I don't have a way of measuring whether my Hb1AC has improved though; it was again at the border line when I had it measured at my hypertension check in July that they do each year. It has previously been at that level and I was able to get it down. But I can't keep track of it myself unless I ask at the surgery for it to be done - I don't think (?) that there are home tests for that, so I don't actually know if that's improved - and if it has, if it's because of the lower carb, or because of losing 4-5kg. The NHS stuff they send you definitely say reduce carbs if you get those levels on the Hb1AC test.

Hope your results continue to improve, @MapleLeafForever

I've seen ads for lots of Hb1AC tests, on line and in our local chemist. No idea how reliable they would be or comparable to those done by NHS labs. Our GP's practice 'allows' a max of one Hb1AC test a year

You can estimate your Hb1AC - this formula give you the old % value

=(2.59+blood glucose)/1.59

there is a converter on

www.diabetes.org.uk/guide-to-diabetes/managing-your-diabetes/hba1c

I have a spreadsheet so when I put in my fasting BG it gives an estimate.