To think having more DC in todays climate is irresponsible?

[CPHB2021]

Friend and I chatting today about having children and adding to your family. Do you think that given the economic climate at present and a very unknown few years it's irresponsible to have a child/more children?
I am on the fence with this one as think, when is a good time, really? But she is very strongly on the NO ONE should be entering into parenthood or expanding their family unless literally millionaires. What do you think?

I know a few people like her.

They make their decisions, their kids grow up a bit, then they look down their nose at everyone else for making the same choices as they did.

There is not a single reason to have a child that isn't selfish tbh, but that has always been the case.

Her idea of children only being a luxury for millionares is ridiculous.

If only millionaires had children the human race would be solely comprised of people like the fucking Tory front bench.

It’s hilarious, the only people who strongly assert that nobody should be having children are people who already have a couple themselves 😆

Yeah. Handy.

It depends on individual circumstances, if you are struggling and can't afford the kids you've got maybe it's not a good idea to have more.

Never a good time.

However delaying kids past 35? Extremely bad idea, your not fertile forever. Money doesn't buy your fertile years back

Very true. She is past that but her children are older and she had them mid 20's.

I obviously wouldn't suggest someone scraping the barrel, to add more or start a family but I do think that most average families can never really 'afford' another. But they come along and you cope and budget in different ways.

We probably couldn't have afforded our second DC but we had her and we're in a better financial position now than when we first had her. Jobs changed, we made different, more informed decisions both personally and financially. I couldn't imagine if we had put off having her.

At first I thought you were talking about kids in relation to climate change which is one conversation but you mention only millionaires … so why should millionaires be allowed to have children?

You realise not everyone is on the breadline and there have always been poor people in the UK?

Mumsnet makes it seem like every family in the country are in their needs eating scraps but that just isn’t true.
Families can make their own decisions about kids.

The reference to millionaires is she thinks that it's not fair to not be able to provide for your children. Alongside climate issues, which we all know that really no children is the best thing but that aside, she thinks that the cost of living is so high these days and not to be a drain on society, be able to provide education, opportunities and even things like 'proper food' were her in her argument. I don't disagree with fragments of this but I still fight the case of, for the average family, I don't think there is every enough money or enough time or stability to truly commit to another child, particularly past three two children but that most people cope and find ways, if they want to expand their family and this year/few years won't change that.

'NO ONE should be entering into parenthood or expanding their family unless literally millionaires'

She's a twat. Hth.

I think an objection on economic grounds is different to objections along environmental lines. The latter is literally existential.
Working in education with marginalised communities and many families in poverty, I see the impact of protracted financial hardship on children. I wouldn't deliberately choose to have a baby in grinding poverty. The argument that having a child isn't just a privilege for the well off feels disingenuous: it casts children as something we 'have'. Ideally, a child should be entitled to the best possible starting point, including financial circumstances which prevent abject deprivation.
Two children is not some arbitrary number plucked from the air by OP's friend; it is the 'replacement rate', so not unreasonable.
The fact that OP's friend is somehow not credible because she's had her 'chance' already, and is only smugly objecting now that her own family is complete, is another flawed silencing technique. Nobody needs to have a child, but oh my lord, the pull can be so strong! I have friends who have decided to deliberately tune out of world news the last 5 years, as the cognitive dissonance is just too much: if you look at the climate science and really let it sink in, it is very, very hard to simultaneously nurture a dream of starting a family and putting that plan into action.

I made a conscious decision in my 20s not to have children as it struck me as environmentally and socially irresponsible. And that was over 25 years ago.

I don’t understand people having more kids when they can’t afford them though. That strikes me as odd.

“It’s tremendously selfish to have X kids, where X = (the number of kids I want anyway + 1)”

Not massively compelling argument from your friend tbh.

@CPHB2021 The reference to millionaires is she thinks that it's not fair to not be able to provide for your children.

Since when do you have to be a millionaire for to provide for your children?

for the average family, I don't think there is every enough money or enough time or stability to truly commit to another child

Seriously what are you talking about? How on earth have you come to the conclusion that the ‘average’ family can’t afford another child?
What gives you the right to dictate that?

Our household income is nowhere near being a millionaire and we manage completely comfortably and look forward to another child.

Interesting it’s people who already have the children they wanted making these random assumptions for others 🙄

I think it's no one else's business and if you want kids then go ahead and have them. There is never a good time and I'm beginning to feel like with the cost of living, climate crisis, absolute shitehawk politics and wars left right and centre, there really is nothing left in life. Find your path however you please and everyone else can butt out.

@Rockbird could not have put it better. Wise advice.

I mean that as an average family ( talking about myself ) on paper we probably couldn't have afforded our second child. We decided that we would make it work somehow, as we desperately wanted a sibling for our first DC. We had her, adjusted things and are coping just fine. I am totally with you on the not needing to be a millionaire. I didn't word my last comment very well. Apologies.

Most of this is barely relevant though and it’s not a ‘silencing technique’ to take OP and her friend’s opinion differently when they already have the children they wanted.

OP isn’t saying people in absolute poverty shouldn’t have kids they can’t feed, she is saying NO ONE should have more children than they have right now (whatever that number is apparently), that no average family can afford another and that only millionaires should be having another child.

I agree with her. It’s not just about money, but the kind of world they’ll grow up in. The economy is broken, wages barely cover living costs, secure/owned housing is all but unobtainable except for the rich and the climate is getting worse year by year. I don’t think today’s children are going to grow up in a pleasant world at all.

👏

There is never a good time to have children if you actually think about risks.

I'm having another one regardless because I want to. End of. No justification needed.

Sorry but there’s always been a war, an apocalypse, one bad harvest away from famine. You could get him by a bus tomorrow. This post is fear mongering and hand wringing at its finest. just live your life and try to contribute a bit to the common good.

I haven’t RTFT.

I bet she holds her view while simultaneously having a couple of kids of her own.

your friend is ridiculous. Why should millionaires be the only ones to have the enjoyment of having children and a family?

Her view is that, it costs so much to have a child and bring them up with opportunities and education etc in todays society that people should really be so financially comfortable before embarking on parenthood or adding to their family.

I understand her points but I also think that people cope just fine and make adjustments to accommodate children or siblings ( we certainly had to for DC2 and now things are much better for us despite it looking pretty bleak when I was on Mat leave )