Childhood immunisations

[bakewellbride]

Posting for traffic. What would you say to a friend who has no plans to get her baby vaccinated?

I want to try to say something just the once then end the friendship if she doesn't listen because I just can't be friends with someone like that.

How would you phrase it and what would you say? I really want to get her to reconsider as dh is a paramedic and knows full well the dangers on not getting your child vaccinated. The diseases really are horrible.

A lot of people will tell you to stay quiet because it's none of your business, but I couldn't. A lot of people will tell you that you'll risk the friendship if you say anything, and you probably will, but tbh I couldn't stay friends with someone so stupid and neglectful.

If I were you, I'd tell your friend a story that your DH told you about an unvaccinated child with meningitis, and then ask her to please please reconsider not vaccinating.

If you plan to end the friendship anyway just ask her why she doesn’t plan to get the baby vaccinated and then just go with your answers, what do you have to loose?

I agree. She's done lots of things I've bitten my tongue over but there is just something about this that feels different - literally risking a child's life. I can't stay quiet.

The story thing from dh is a good idea. He has some horrible meningitis ones involving limb amputation. Anyone who can hear that and then still not act is no friend of mine.

Her opinions on the covid vaccine are also 'interesting' but I let that go because that doesn't deliberately put an innocent baby in danger.

This is going to become more common. People who have fallen for the anti vax narrative around covid choosing not to protect their children against deadly childhood diseases. I imagine the health care professionals will do their best to persuade her.

I imagine she had all the childhood vaccinations herself? So her parents protected her against measles, whooping cough, meningitis etc.
You could look up some statistics on infant deaths before vaccines were available.

I think I would have to say something like - I would really think hard about your decision because this could have a devastating impact on your child. Then I would cool further communication.

Unfortunately there is nothing you can say. The anti-vaccine groups use a lot of cult tactics which means breaking out of that mindset really difficult. I read a great article once about a woman who changed her mind but it came from her own self reflection. Nothing anyone else said would make a difference.

I know people will come along and say none of your business, how shallow to end a friendship over this etc. but for me vaccine stance says a lot about a person. In the same way I couldn’t be friends with someone who was anti-choice or loves Ayn Rand. I just don’t have the headspace for it.

Ask her when she did her degree in pharmacology or medicine to become an expert? As the NHS is free at point of use they wouldn't want to be spending money on immunisations if the evidence didn't support it. She's being a science denier and thinks she's smarter than the experts

Thanks everyone, lots for me to think about.

I’d mind my own business tbh.
Its very likely she won’t be interested in your advice and also very unlikely she will change her mind based on it.
If it’s a deal breaker for you, move on from the friendship. If not, accept that her view is different to yours.

I don't understand this move towards a world in which people cannot be friends with others who have different opinions from themselves. If you are friends then this one difference of opinion shouldn't change that. If you are friends you can tell her that you disagree wholeheartedly with her and it is something you are unlikely to find common ground on so you don't want to discuss it further. Then carry on as if it never came up. Her children will not be putting your vaccinated children at risk. Luckily most of the diseases that are vaccinated for are now rare, so she will benefit from mass vaccination by proxy. When her children are older they can make up their own minds and may well choose to have vaccines.

Do you have any interest in understanding her reasons or are you just wanting to tell her what you think?

If the latter then you can just launch into your lecture and saunter off into the distance when you're done.

If the former you can say "that's so interesting that you have chosen not to vaccinate. I don't know anyone else that's made that choice. Do you mind sharing your reasons with me?" Then take it from there. If you're going to tell her you disagree then make sure you have the data to hand about number of cases of each illness and their mortality rates.

Btw - not all meningitis can be vaccinated against. So if you know someone who has suffered from it don't assume they were unvaccinated.

Her children will not be putting your vaccinated children at risk

No they will just be putting immuno-compromised people and people who can’t have jabs plus babies who haven’t yet had jabs at risk. It’s a shitty thing to do.

You can’t tell people what to do with their children - it’s up to them.

When my oldest kids were little, and there were lots of people saying their children were vaccine damaged, I was vaccine hesitant and people preaching at me would have made me double down. In time, I have seen sense, changed my mind and I feel that vaccines are as safe as they’ve ever been, now. My 2 year old has had all her jabs.

Firstly I'm very pro-vaccinations and I think everyone should get them if they can, especially to protect children that are immuno compromised or can't have them for medical reasons. However I think you need to have a fair chat with her first to see what her reasoning is. I know someone who didn't vaccinate because they took an extremely rare and severe reaction to a childhood vaccine as a baby and nearly died and they were terrified their child would have the same reaction to that vaccine. That's much harder to argue with than someone who's just very invested in pseudoscience and is listening to questionable people. So I think you need to give her a chance and hear her out. I think people have got very into two camps over vaccines and covid really brought this to the forefront but at its heart both probably are doing what they genuinely feel is best for their child because that's what we all want at the end of the day right? So I think talk it out with her. If it were me and she wasn't planning on vaccinations then I'd probably reduce contact around her child because I'd worry about putting them at risk by carrying something to them. Its genuinely scary the illnesses that are resurfacing now because more people aren't getting vaccines that have worked in the past but I also do think people maybe now are thinking and questioning more about it than they have previously (again from covid) and there's some responsibility on the government or health care providers to take concerns seriously and answer questions as best they can without just dismissing someone as an "antivaxxer" otherwise how do we learn and change mindsets? I know someone who went to ask their midwife about concerns re covid vaccine because they'd read mixed info and they felt totally dismissed and didn't end up getting it as a result. Whereas if that conversation had been more open they might have felt reassured enough to get it.

I would end the friendship. I can do without anti vaxxers bringing their crazy into my life. And I wouldn’t say anything - not my problem if her kid dies.

Sadly, there will always be people less burdened by heavy weight of common sense in the world and there isn’t a great deal you can do about it.
i completely empathise with your situation as have been in one similar and unfortunately, as a previous poster put it, you can’t really tell people what to do with their kids.
i raised it with my friend (who was a nurse by profession, I might add) and to help, I showed them pictures of kids with polio and measles and news articles that mentioned cases of them recently. They ended up getting some vaccines, but not all (poor kid)
in the end it turned out we were just too different of people for a number of other reasons amd the friendship kind of naturally fizzled out.

I don’t think this is a mere difference of opinion. It is a matter which speaks quite deeply to a person’s belief system. I have friends I disagree with about all sorts of things, but there are some issues that would make us such fundamentally different people that I don’t see how a friendship can continue. Choosing to believe in dangerous conspiracy theories and pseudoscience in one of those. Being anti-choice is another. Why would I be friends with someone who thinks so little of women for example?

The diseases we vaccinate against are not rare, they are just suppressed by vaccination. As soon as vaccination rates drop even a small amount they pop up again. Measles does this commonly in pockets with lower vaccination rates, and London is currently having a polio scare.

As I said you can’t preach to an anti-vaxxer it will only make them double down. They always know someone who had “a severe reaction” to a vaccine. Given the rarity it’s amazing how many people know someone 🙄. Someone I met at a playgroup claimed her child had severe reaction to the first lot of vaccines. When queried her child had a temperature and loss of appetite for a couple of days. So normal mild symptoms then.

You’re doing the right thing - those illnesses can be fatal, or permanently disabling. I’d definitely have to speak to her, and if she doesn’t listen then cool the friendship, and tell her why.

The reason I would have to terminate a friendship like this is for her children's safety. If my child was carrying polio, for example, but didn't get ill because she's been vaccinated, I wouldn't want my friend's unvaccinated child to catch it from her and die. It isn't just about intolerance of other people's views.

I have been in this position several times and always chose to speak up

theres a book called bad science by dr ben goldacre, i gift a copy and direct them to the chapter on vaccines.

everything they want to know about that fucking wakefield is explored in an accesible way that is not down on them for being worried.

that chapter is the reason my own kid was vaccinated when i had doubts so im sharing from a place of empathy of their position and i think that helps.

@SomePosters - Fantastic book, as is his book Bad Pharma

Her opinions on the covid vaccine are also 'interesting' but I let that go because that doesn't deliberately put an innocent baby in danger.

Yes it absolutely does.

If you want to spend your entire life living in an echo chamber with only people who you agree with go for it. I find it very sad that people can’t learn from other people and respect peoples differences. Whether their child is or is not vaccinated will not effect your life. You’re being very judgmental and controlling.

My ex worked in kids ICU and the stories she would tell of children nearly dying or being left disabled by preventable childhood diseases would changed any anti vaxxer mind.
She used to get really angry about it, it was one thing treating kids who’d had accidents but ones who shouldn’t even be there she struggles with.
there’s a boy in DDs class who’s deaf because of measles. He caught it before they had a chance to vac him as a tiny baby.

Not giving dangerous theories the time of day is not living in an echo chamber. Deciding to take a stance that is opposed to all common sense and prevailing expert advice is living in a echo chamber.

@ChilliBandit you don't even know why the person in question has no plans to vaccinate.