To be an ardent supporter of the 11+ and Grammar schools when my own experience has been both bitter and sweet

[Challenger5]

I know the 11+ and the existence of Selective schools whether independent or state causes a great deal of divisive debate in society. Personally, the 11+ and Grammar schools has brought both sweet and sour tastes to me. The sweet being in the form of both my daughters passing the 11+. In particular DD2 passing, this despite coming to me from the care system at 4 with significant academic issues thus qualifying for an ECHP for her Autism and other related issues. Thus, the joy and emotion and sense of achievement when we find out she had passed, was off the scale and is alongside my greatest life experiences.

The sour side to the 11 + was me failing the exam and being told by my family that I was not Grammar School quality, unlike my cousins, elder and younger sisters.
I was constantly bullied for four years at my authentic 1980/1990 Kent girls Secondary Modern. This for the treasonous crime of being conscientious in my studies. It was not until I was punched in the face in the 4th year (YR10) for handing in English homework, that my wealthy parents moved me to a private Girls school. This meant I had to go in to the third year after taking the school's entrance exam because I was three years behind. I narrowly failed the 11+ this due to the appalling education I received from my Secondary School for four years.

The Grammar School educations given to my sisters and cousins enabled them to achieve both academically and professionally. However, I also understand the potential cliff- face nature of passing/failing the 11+. This potentially would have happened to me if my parents had not had the money to move me away (please not the move was not for the education I was receiving that was appropriate for my ability but for the bullying). Thus, I know how stigma can be present in families where even today my younger sister tells people I failed my 11+. Younger sister likes telling people I only got into university because my parents, bribed the private school to take me.

Well, I went to a girls grammar and had a hideous time. Not what I want for my DD, who thankfully doesn't seem to want t it either.

It benefitted me greatly. Similarly, my sister didn’t pass and has gone on to get all As at a level
and a high achieving degree at uni.

interestingly, the area which still has the 11 plus near me (Trafford) the non selective schools get better results than comprehensive schools in Cheshire / Manchester and that is despite the ‘clever’ kids being creamed off to the grammars. So they must be doing something right!

Wouldn't it be nice if we just had a system where you went to your local school and they were all the same. Where nothing was selective and everyone was able to have a quality education.

It's a hideous system and there are very few of them thankfully I think people who are in favour of them either have children in Grammar schools or are certain their children will pass the11+
I didn't know this untill recently but both my mum and her two brothers failed their 11+ in the 50,s they were fortunate that their mother could afford private schooling all have been very successful, my mums oldest brother was a GP and her youngest brother is a QC or KC I guess now.

It’s a completely flawed system. You can’t test an eleven year old and make predictions based on that test. The original research that the 11+ is based on was discredited. Cyril Burt, who devised the test, made up his results and even lied about the existence of two assistants.

I failed the 11+ and was sent to an awful secondary modern school. The syllabus really didn’t suit me. Subsequently I went back into education as an adult and achieved As at GCSE, As at A level, a degree and a post grad in education. No child should ever be written off at the age of eleven based on an IQ test that is meaningless.

If grammars are that great, give everywhere the opportunity.
If comps can work for the majority of places (I think 11+ is the minority, not the majority), scrap the 11+.

I actually think the biggest failure is for the kids who will never get 5 grade 4s at GCSE. The system needs overhauling for them because currently they are totally failed.

We don't live in a grammar area and one of mine is now studying Law at uni; one was Head Girl of her school. My youngest works hard at school and has never been punched in the face; all attended state comprehensives.

If you believe this can only be achieved at grammar schools you are seriously misinformed.

Most children are failed by the grammar system in England.

Most children in England never have the opportunity to sit the 11+ thankfully.

I was (in the 1960s) the first child that anyone could remember passing the 11+ from my north Manchester, working class area, primary school. On my first day at Grammar School, I was surprised to find that a lot of the other kids knew each other (?) - because, they had all been to the same primary schools in the posher parts of Manchester - a dozen or so kids from the same primary school had passed the 11+ (as they did every year). What does that tell you , about what the 11+, and grammar schools were really about ? They were about the entrenchment, and enhancement, of existing class privilege.

I think they're fine. I have DC1 in a grammar who did amazingly at 11+ and DC2 in a regular school as they have never been very academic in the way DC1 was, so didn’t pass 11+. Neither child had any tutoring fyi.
I'd like it if all schools were great though. Luckily where we are, there's a good mix of grammar and decent non grammar. Many of the regular schools have what they call a 'grammar sream' in them, which is basically the top sets.

True - more specifically perhaps, the grammar system fails most children in the areas where it exists.

Interesting. My mum and her brothers went to Grammar school from a North Manchester working class primary school. As did several school friends. Definitely not a posh or privileged area. But it was the step up that lead them to jobs in teaching and accountancy. It's the reason that they are all Pro Grammar.

Both DCs failed the 11+ because I couldn't afford tutoring, it's a terrible system. Luckily we were planning to move anyway and they're doing well at a nonselective school.

Interesting posts on here. I also attended a North Manchester grammar in the 1960s. Came from a very working-class mill town but I was one of eight children in my primary school class to pass the 11+ from my primary school. No one had tutoring.
There were many girls from the same town also at the school.
Yes, there were pupils with professional parents but certainly not all. The one good thing about being educated there, was that girls were encouraged to well in mathematics and science. Hard to believe this was pioneering stuff for those times.

You sound like my Mum. All through my childhood I listened to her telling me how lucky I was not to have to take the 11 plus, how she felt like a failure because she didn't pass hers and how wrong it is to pigeonhole children at such a young age.

Now (as a staunch Tory) she waxes lyrical about how wonderful the Grammar School system is and how it would help children to be more socially mobile.

It sounds like you are only in favour of Grammar Schools because your kids got into one. I went to a comprehensive, did very well academically and am pleased my children don't have to go through a divisive Grammar system.

Until all schools are equal, I do not begrudge anyone using grammar, faith, private schools or moving into the catchment of a better performing school.

You do what is best for your child and not all local schools can fully support the differing needs or abilities of their cohorts.

I think they should be scrapped so that a fairer representation is around school table - champions being brainy and meanwhile we have to explain why our kid’s friends are going for grammar system when we don’t believe in it.
But also agree not all schools work best for all kids - so let’s focus on that and ask why and how we can alter it.

E.g. More money is needed for SENCO teaching. Teachers barely know what to look for with diagnosis of ADHD in girls but you can’t get diagnosis without teachers’ feedback and they can’t spot it! Mainly as classes too large. Class size is problematic.

I think the grammar school system has changed dramatically over the years.
Everybody in my primary school took the 11+, for those who passed, they went to grammars, some went to a local selective school, everyone else went to a secondary modern.
The secondary modern offered vocational as well as academic qualifications, so for those people who didn't fare well academically, they still had every opportunity to get good exams.

In Scotland, we do. No 11+ or selection. All state secondary schools are Comprehensive.
DH and I went to English Grammar schools. Our sons had a great academic and social experience at Scottish Comp.

It sounds more like the issue is that your sister is a bit of a cow tbh, who needs to wind her neck in.

This 100%

If you'd have asked me a few years ago where I stood on private schools I wouldn't have even considered ever paying to send my DC to one.

But then my eldest got to an age where we had to look at our local schools. The reality of what they offer and how she would cope in that environment really does make me think that it's in her best interest to be in a smaller more supportive environment.

Of course all children would benefit from that. But I can't change things for all children right now. I do have that option for my own though.

(No grammars in our area I went to a state grammar myself and enjoyed it an did well so I do think they're the best fit for some children. I would've been bullied or led astray in a state school.)

It's a hideous unfair system that does not exist where I live.
You said you only got to uni as parents bribed private school.
Should no one from the north east be allowed to go to uni?
Kids should not be written off age 11.

My grammar school transformed my life. I came from a very poor background, some of my younger years were spent in a hostel for example as my dad was an abusive alcoholic. I got in to my local grammar school at 11 and ended up taking A-levels in STEM subjects. I was award a bursary that was to encourage girls to take a STEM subject up at uni (I am being vague as not to be outting). That along with a bursary for being a care leaver meant I was the first person in my family to ever go to university. I stayed and did a masters and PhD and am now a researcher. I married another academic and we have several children and live a very comfortable, middle class life. I don't think I would have ever had the aspirations to apply for university if it hadn't been for my school encouraging me and surrounding me with others with those aspirations.

Hadalifeonce · Today 03:05
I think the grammar school system has changed dramatically over the years.
Everybody in my primary school took the 11+, for those who passed, they went to grammars, some went to a local selective school, everyone else went to a secondary modern.
The secondary modern offered vocational as well as academic qualifications, so for those people who didn't fare well academically, they still had every opportunity to get good exams.

I think the non-Selective schools in Grammar school areas today are nothing like there were in the 80s and 90s, so in general offer a decent education. There are even some decent non-selective schools in Kent.

Mushroo · Yesterday 21:46

interestingly, the area which still has the 11 plus near me (Trafford) the non -selective schools get better results than comprehensive schools in Cheshire / Manchester and that is despite the ‘clever’ kids being creamed off to the grammars. So, they must be doing something right!

I know how good all the Secondary Schools are in Trafford, because it is likely DD1 would have either have gone to Loreto/ Altrincham Grammar if we had decided not to go back to Kent after living 10 years in Altrincham. You are quite right that Wellington, BTH out- perform or are equal Lymm High and Knutsford Academy. This proves that Grammar systems don't have to be destructive, to those who fail the selection process. This is not something that can always have been said of the Kent 11+, over the last 30 years, though perhaps falling the 11+ in Kent today is not quite as disaster ridden as it used to be.