To be an ardent supporter of the 11+ and Grammar schools when my own experience has been both bitter and sweet

[Challenger5]

I know the 11+ and the existence of Selective schools whether independent or state causes a great deal of divisive debate in society. Personally, the 11+ and Grammar schools has brought both sweet and sour tastes to me. The sweet being in the form of both my daughters passing the 11+. In particular DD2 passing, this despite coming to me from the care system at 4 with significant academic issues thus qualifying for an ECHP for her Autism and other related issues. Thus, the joy and emotion and sense of achievement when we find out she had passed, was off the scale and is alongside my greatest life experiences.

The sour side to the 11 + was me failing the exam and being told by my family that I was not Grammar School quality, unlike my cousins, elder and younger sisters.
I was constantly bullied for four years at my authentic 1980/1990 Kent girls Secondary Modern. This for the treasonous crime of being conscientious in my studies. It was not until I was punched in the face in the 4th year (YR10) for handing in English homework, that my wealthy parents moved me to a private Girls school. This meant I had to go in to the third year after taking the school's entrance exam because I was three years behind. I narrowly failed the 11+ this due to the appalling education I received from my Secondary School for four years.

The Grammar School educations given to my sisters and cousins enabled them to achieve both academically and professionally. However, I also understand the potential cliff- face nature of passing/failing the 11+. This potentially would have happened to me if my parents had not had the money to move me away (please not the move was not for the education I was receiving that was appropriate for my ability but for the bullying). Thus, I know how stigma can be present in families where even today my younger sister tells people I failed my 11+. Younger sister likes telling people I only got into university because my parents, bribed the private school to take me.

I had a fabulous education at a NI grammar school. I doubt my children (in England) will have anywhere near as good an education.

I’m now watching my nephew really struggle with the 11+ in Northern Ireland, which has the double whammy of academic and religious selection and thanking my lucky stars that my academically bright children will not have to endure the horrors.

Grammars may have enhanced social mobility back in the 50’s. They certainly don’t now.

@Challenger5 Of course there are no non-selective schools in an area offering grammar to the few. The comparison is between areas that offer no selection and those that have selection. The question is not whether you’d send your child to a grammar but whether you’d remain supportive of a divided system if your child failed to reach the bar on the day of assessment.

comprehensivefuture.org.uk/facts-figures-and-evidence-about-grammar-schools/

Academic and social success is about affluence and parental involvement. The biggest influence is early parenting.

@CaronPoivre One issue that bothers me is the measurement of poor pupils. Using FSM misses those whose parents are not particularly wealthy but earn above the limit for FSM. There are lots of children who attend grammar schools in this bracket but official stats miss them as household income stats are not collected.

We don’t have the same system as Kent but here everyone tutors their kids for 2/3yrs to pass the test. My DS didn’t pass, he left school with 9x9’s (and 3 8’s) and 3 A*’s. Currently at Uni. Friend who tutored her son said he hated it and he came to my son’s local secondary for 6th form. She didn’t bother with her younger kids

I think parents should be allowed to have the choice of sending their children to grammar schools as every child is different and some suit the environment grammar schools bring.
My son finds socialising difficult in general but is very ambitious and therefore he loves his grammar school as everyone there has similar goals and ambitions and they drive each other on to achieve. This has meant that he has made more friends than he perhaps would have made in the comprehensive school where not everyone would have a similar outlook. It also means that the school can purely focus on ensuring that all students get very good grades and get into good universities since all the pupils are at that standard.Of course comprehensives would be able to do this for high achievers but it is a different environment when the whole school is geared towards the same goal.
For example, if you were on track for a 6 or 7 at GCSE the school would put on interventions to ensure you are getting a 8 or 9, this would not happen as much at a comprehensive since those schools have to also focus on getting students a grade 5. At A level, much of the focus is on how to bump up grade A to A* since everyone has that same goal.

Therefore grammar schools should exist as they provide an environment that solely caters for students who have above average attainment and ensures that they get the support they need to achieve their highest potential. Grammar schools often have the highest progress 8 scores and this is probably the reason why.

While I don’t hate the system I think to base it on one day of exams of a very specific type is wrong. DC who are good at those type of exams will do well but very bright dc who aren’t won’t. DC without engaged parents or parents who don’t understand the system won’t do well.
If the idea is to take the most academic DC at Grammar Primary schools need to be involved. At my DDs Primary the teachers weren’t even allowed to answer the question “do you think my child should do the 11+?”. It would give children who’s parents can’t or won’t support to have the same opportunities

Mid 60's i was in the system where every child took the 11 plus tutors at that age didnt exist i passed with flying colours and went to the grammar school , our one had children from the local private school to kids like me from the council estate from day one one boy from the private school made my life hell and yes i was bright but apart from one or two lessons i hated almost every minute of being there to this day i wish i hadnt been so bright and had gone to the very good secondary girls school in our town

While I don’t hate the system I think to base it on one day of exams of a very specific type is wrong. DC who are good at those type of exams will do well but very bright dc who aren’t won’t. DC without engaged parents or parents who don’t understand the system won’t do well.

Agree with this totally. I'm not against academic selection per se, I just think 10 is far too young to be doing it. Making irrevocable decisions about a child's future school path on the basis of a single, non-curriculum based exam at that age is actually pretty terrible.

The theory behind comprehensives is that you can move up and down the sets if you are doing well/struggling, and also that you can be in different sets for different subjects, reflecting an individual child's strengths and weaknesses. If this isn't happening it's a criticism of the school in question, not of the system.

I'm very grateful for grammars. My worst fear for my dds was being stuck with awful behaviour in the classroom from other kids and they struggled with this at primary. My dd teacher told the class the other day how grateful he is to teach at their grammar ro kids who want to learn and arnt abusive. I don't blame him

I passed my 11+ but didn't get into either of the 2 local grammar schools due to a high pass rate that year! All those weekends wasted with a tutor and going for practice tests, all that stress for nothing!

I asked my daughter if she wants to do one but she wants to go to the same school as her friends, I'm certainly not going to push her to do it given that there's no guarantee of getting into a grammar school even if she passes.

For example, if you were on track for a 6 or 7 at GCSE the school would put on interventions to ensure you are getting a 8 or 9, this would not happen as much at a comprehensive since those schools have to also focus on getting students a grade 5.

I'm not in a grammar school area but my local comprehensive absolutely does do this. Each year there are three or four intervention groups ranging from aiming to get people across the 3/4 boundary to getting the top students to 8/9. We should be focusing on enabling all schools to offer this, but in the past 12 years we have gone in the opposite direction.

I sat the 11+ and passed it in 1979, didn't take up my place because my parents decided not to settle in the UK permanently. Back then nobody was tutored and it was a genuine test of ability. It's very different these days. I also very much object to pigeonholing children at age 11 - it does not work to help everyone reach their potential.

where even today my younger sister tells people I failed my 11+. Younger sister likes telling people I only got into university because my parents, bribed the private school to take me.

blimey OP, your sister sounds awful. I went yo a grammar while my brother never passed. Wouldn't dream of bringing it up.

Both my sons go to grammar. And especially for DS1 I knew as soon as we went for the open day this was the place for him.

The biggest issue I believe with my Secondary School, was the disproportionately number of girls who were both materially and socially disadvantaged. Thus, the pupils who wanted to learn in the first two years and deserved better were subjected to the social ills of 80s and early 90s. The consequence being these pupils gave up trying by the third year and were dragged down to the behaviour levels of the now mainstream such as book throwing, swearing and large -scale truanting.

On reflection I must have been an outlier at the school. This due to living in advantages circumstances in a large- family house having big cars and travelling abroad two or three times a year. Therefore, obviously I must have been viewed with both suspicion and curiosity as to why I went to school there. My Mum and Dad believed the school would install character in me.

However, I do believe the school could have been good if 30 or 40 pupils had been removed and placed somewhere else in the first year. This suggests that the most socially destructive pupils should not be in any mainstream school, if implemented we could argue to bring back Secondary Modern Schools. These could become high successful schools offering vocational skills and tie ups to businesses within the community.

”I do believe the school could have been good if 30 or 40 pupils had been removed and placed somewhere else in the first year. This suggests that the most socially destructive pupils should not be in any mainstream school”

Wow. Where do you suggest they are put?

I went to a state grammar school but in a time when they weren't super-selective, so you didn't need tutoring to go there. In recent years it feels like a private school without the fees and with pupils makin long journeys to get there, and I can see why it is annoying. I am glad I went to that school but think the changes are negative.

My DH also went to a state grammar school.

But I am happier with the decent comprehensive school system in my area and glad my son didn't have to go through the stress of the 11+. I don't think kids are written off at 11, but I don't think you need to split the kids up to educate them well.

It’s strange that nobody ever says bring back secondary moderns, when by definition a return to a selective system means that the majority of children will go to them.

Reading the OP's posts I'm glad I went to a comprehensive in inner London.

My DD will also be going to a similar school.

My extended family have gone to a mixture of private, selective state and comp schools.

With the young adults I can compare as they are of a similar age and sex, I can say those who went to comps have done better.

Yeah but it won't be my children.

<Rolls eyes sarcastically.>

An older friend of mine's eldest child ended up failing the 11+ and going to a secondary modern. He only caught up with his education at 16 after his parents realised the school he went to was especially shit. (It is now a normal comp and less shit.) His younger siblings, even though they passed the 11+, travelled to inner city Comps like me.

"My son finds socialising difficult in general but is very ambitious and therefore he loves his grammar school as everyone there has similar goals and ambitions and they drive each other on to achieve. This has meant that he has made more friends than he perhaps would have made in the comprehensive school where not everyone would have a similar outlook."

We're in a comprehensive area. True, not everyone in my daughter's year had the same goals and ambitions, but because they were not creamed off into a grammar school, there were plenty who did. She found plenty of similarly bright friends who had academic interests, and they spurred each other on. What's more, some of the middle-ranking children who might not have made it into a grammar were also able to benefit from that; one or two of her friends were not "grammar school material" but fitted socially with her group.

Isn’t it sad, and crazy, that this seems like an impossible dream 😭