it's daft to think parents with kids in private school have money to burn?

[Popgoestheweaselagain]

Just got asked by my school what would be the impact if they had to pay VAT, adding 20% to fees. My response was 'I'd try to keep my child in the school, but ....'. I think almost all parents would respond this way. Alarmed, did a quick google, and found this is Labour policy. Next time they come knocking at my door looking for my vote, I'll be telling them why they can't have it!

Now, I understand why some people are ideologically opposed to private schools, the unfariness etc. But when I hear this argument that goes something like 'Those people must have loads of money because they send their kids to private school' it kind of annoys me. Money is finite. If you've spent all your money on school fees, you obviously don't have it anymore!

The irony is that Keir Starmer himself went to Reigate Grammar school which is fee paying!!!

I don't know his story other than he was saying he came from a working class back ground so presume he was there on a bursary the availability of which would probably be vastly reduced if he goes ahead with this plan

A good 15-20% of families won’t be able to afford the rise in fees and will have to move to state schools. Can’t wait to see how they will find extra more places at the already oversubscribed state schools- especially accommodating the SEND children. It is a very shortsighted policy. They should fix the state school system before they start breaking the private sector. It is policies like this that make them come across as vindictive.

One of the arguments used repeatedly is that private schools generate inequality. My childen were in classes of 40 at primary, their cousins school, the maximum number per class was 24. The only local state secondary school has 12 form entry. We have no local sixth form. The nearest being two bus journeys away. There is inequality everywhere, even in the state sector.

We live in London, so not that much choice when we bought! Our aspirations extended to checking there were some schools nearby rated “good” by ofsted- that was about it.

@Blankscreen, it was a state grammar school when he started there. It went back to being a fee-paying school, as it had been earlier in its history, when the 11+ was abolished halfway through his secondary career. I was in a similar position to Sir Keir when my school went from being a direct grant school to independent when Labour abolished the direct grant, and my free place (effectively a 100% scholarship) continued. I can't believe the Starmers were required to pay fees.

Blair managed to take the country with his policies without being vindictive

Starmer doesn’t need this, maybe back when he wasn’t doing well but now he can try to do a Blair

He uses his quotes anyway so may as well go further

No but expensive houses and private businesses offering tutoring and sports training etc should be taxed. Oh no wait. They are.

Sorry, shouldn't have done that in such a rush but the £100,000,000 is what the IFS says here: ifs.org.uk/publications/2021-annual-report-education-spending-england

That's probably because you haven't had to spend time in schools with the children left behind when all the wealthy kids go to private or grammar schools. It makes a massive difference to the school.

The majority of private schools have charitable status; they do not operate at a profit

I was going to say the same.

Also, there is a complete misunderstanding on MN regarding VAT and charitable status - the two are not connected.

Educational supplies (materials or services) are exempt from VAT. To charge VAT on school fees the Government would have to change the policy and then VAT would become chargeable on everything educational including university fees, educational books and supplies etc so every state school kid would suffer too. Our state schools can't afford books, educational materials etc as it is, how do you think an extra 20% on the cost is going to help.

Charitable status means the organisation is exempt from paying
Corporation Tax on charitable activities (but do have to pay tax on any activities that are not charitable). Removing charitable status will not mean that private schools have to start charging VAT. It is irrelevant!

He passed the 11-plus examination and gained entry to Reigate Grammar School, then a voluntary aided selective grammar school.[11] It was converted into an independent fee-paying school in 1976, while he was a student, although he was exempt from paying fees.

And so what? Honestly I am sick of feeling guilty about doing well.

Same here. Instead of coming after parents who have got on in life and invest that money in their DC, why don’t people do what DH and I did.

We are both from northern WC estates, went to Uni and worked jobs to help pay for it as our parents couldn’t give us any money. Then we both moved to London to get good jobs. Then we lived and worked abroad for nearly 2 decades. We both work but my DH has a 3 hour daily commute and is away from home up to 2 weeks a month.

As a result we are able to send our DC to a private school. It’s paid off too. Eldest just aced his GCSE’s.

Are you prepared to put yourself out to get on like we’ve done?

This is a poorly thought out policy!

In an ideal world there would be sufficient state school places for children of school age, state schools would be adequately funded and all provide a good level of education enabling each child to achieve the best of their ability.

The reality is there are insufficient places, schools have been woefully underfunded for over a decade and the emphasis is all about meeting the band of expectation - no incentive whatsoever to exceed expectation.

Children attending independent schools are not all from wealthy families. A large proportion are from fairly normal earning families but who work additional hours/ jobs and go without luxuries to be able to pay the fees. There are also children who are on scholarships and bursaries.

The genuinely wealthy families will simply pay the extra fees and life continues as normal. These people are a minority.

The families that go without luxuries to pay will in all likelihood be priced out, scholarships and bursaries will be a thing of the past with the loss of charitable status.

State schools have not been promised extra funding and there is already a shortage of places. How will extra places be created other than increasing class sizes? Let's also not forget the parents paying for independent education are still financially contributing to the state system.

If the necessary investment was made into the state system and every child had the opportunity to attend a good school with good facilities and opportunity to achieve the best of their ability then there would be no need for independent schools - other than for the super wealthy who will follow that route regardless. Only at that stage woukd the argument to tax the school fees make economic sense. To do so without the state system being overhauled first would remove the little social mobility that remains.

My three children all went to the local state school, I was morally against independent schools. Through various circumstances I witnessed first hand how easy it is for the state system to fail certain children - and the ridiculous strain it is under. We moved all three of our children to an independent school as a result and have never regretted doing so - although the financial strain was crippling.

It wasn't a luxury, it was necessity for each of them to have the opportunity to achieve the best of their ability.

The elder two are now back in the state system - they both were fortunate to be offered places at fantastic state secondaries. My youngest has a few years left at primary, whether she remains in independent school very much depends on which state school she is offered for secondary.

The policy should be raising the bar and the provision of a first class education available for all - only when that has been achieved should they look to impose tax on school fees (ie when choosing to educate independently genuinely is a luxury).

There are inequalities that can be controlled for (food poverty and its impact on educational attainment for example) and those that can't (parental education level and its impact on attainment for example). We can certainly work towards eliminating the option for some kids to be provided with a significantly better educational experience (within an institution that by its very existence has a negative impact on the state system) simply because their parents have more money.

I just don't think it's reasonable to shrug and say "life's not fair, so what" for poor kids any more than it was when e.g. public transport was completely inaccessible to the disabled. We have a responsibility to try an break down barriers and level up inequalities. I find it amazing that some people really think life should be a lottery of birth and devil take the hindmost - even when the hindmost are disadvantaged CHILDREN.

It's a purely populist policy that will have no impact on government finances nor on social inequality. Those truly rich will continue to pay and not feel the pinch, a higher proportion will still pay whilst making cuts elsewhere and some will not be able to pay anymore and move to state. In the end, it's those well off but not well off enough that will be hit the hardest, and the inequality will increase. The government will gain a remedial amount in VAT and will be able to make a big deal of the way they tackle inequality in education.

I don't think Private Schols should have Charitable Status but should operate under as similar Tax Rules as State Schools as much as possible, which doesn't include charging VAT to educate children.

This doesn't mean I have much sympathy for Private School Parents because I don't, but charging VAT for Education is not on.

I'd no idea Keir went to Reigate Grammar School - it wasn't always fee-paying but used to be a State Grammar for Boys, the Girls went to Reigate County School. Both were transitioned to other sectors with their abolition in the 1970s, the Girls' School becoming a State Co-Ed 6th Form College and the Boys' going Private, eventually becoming Co-Ed.

I went to The County in the 70s as one of the last 3 years so I really do know. Maybe Keir didn't pay fees but passed the Old 11+?

Yeah and if I spent all my money on a labourghini I wouldn't have any either. (I'd also have a shit tonne of debt but this is hypothetical). Having spent all your money doesn't mean you don't have more money. You have places you can cut expenses and still live a comfortable life. There are people on here talking about wearing hats and gloves inside and using tealights to warm up, I'm not particularly sympathetic to your "if our private school fees go up by 20% I'd be a bit worse off" whinge.

I don’t understand who this benefits, parents who pay for private school fees are most likely high earners who pay a lot of tax towards the state school system, which they don’t then utilise.

By making private school education unaffordable, it surely burdens the state school system even more as these children would then go into the state system taking places they otherwise wouldn’t.

In the brave new world where more people are priced out of independent schools, I hope we see a levelling up, now down. One of the reasons we sent our son to an independent school was because we wanted him to have a broad-based curriculum where he could take triple science GCSE, more than one modern language if he wanted to, and also get good teaching in music, Art, DT and PE. Very few of our local comprehensive schools could have guaranteed that at the time. As well as benefitting the individual student, the UK economy needs linguists, musicians, artists, sportspeople and people with an excellent grounding in STEM.

Well said, I'm so disturbed that she would rather children go hungry (truss), if it means she continues to get VAT off, on her child's luxury/premium range educational fees.

*not (not 'now'). Sigh.

My son was privately educated from Years 4 - 11 and was a single parent on benefits. A lot of the kids at smaller and slightly cheaper independent schools are there because they’re neurodiverse and state schools aren’t suitable. Private education isn’t necessarily a luxury unless children being happy and well cared for is a luxury.

This is a controversial view but I think that families like ours should be given the money that the government is saving by us taking our kids out of state schools.

Yes, he passed the 11+. Easily checked.

Yup it should.