To think politics is like religion?

[thenorthsea]

So many things have happened in the last few years that I just don't understand. I think of myself as an empiricist, I look at the information available and make a decision. But so many people don't operate like this. They "believe" in a political party, or a politician, and then proceed to ignore absolutely everything else.

I can't honestly see how anyone could be a conservative right now unless you are very very wealthy and also a sociopath who doesn't give a toss about anyone else. The tories have completely decimated the country in multiple ways, economically, culturally, socially, reputationally... it's just so sad. They have also lied to peoples faces over and over and over again. They look after their own wealth whilst taking that of normal people. They are odious. They are not smart. They are arrogant. And I talk about the current crop - conservatives of yesteryear were not all like this.

Similar things are seen in the US - people will support trump despite all the evidence of his ill deeds and damage to the country etc. You want to think it wouldn't happen here but it does.

I feel like I'm going mad sometimes. Is there anyone out there who previously voted Tory who has now changed their mind? Or is it just fingers in ears and lalala?

Your post may not go down well with thousands of people who use this site who will have voted Tory. I’m not one of them, never have voted Tory. but many people are complicit in making this party one of government for last 12 years.

but here’s the bit that made me think:

I can't honestly see how anyone could be a conservative right now unless you are very very wealthy and also a sociopath who doesn't give a toss about anyone else.

No. I don’t agree.

Conservatism as a political philosophy is a very broad church. it’s not necessarily the Government of the day although they carry the name.

I truly believe a lot of people vote according to two factors

• how they view themselves
• their personal economy

Labour have struggled for years because many people view themselves as aspirational, middle class, striving, trying to build a personal economy. These people do not always want money automatically redistributed through higher taxation, for things to be “fairer” for those who don’t work inthe same industries or hadn’t had the same life changes.

In the last 10 years Labour failed to appeal to Middle England’s identity. And it failed to speak to their personal economies.

So for me it’s why the Tories were returned to power again and again. People see themselves a certain way, and can’t stomach voting for a “party for losers” or whatever guff.

that, and the seduction of “change” promised by Brexit

I think people who aspire to wealth, vote Tory, in the erroneous belief that they will somehow become rich.

I have recently heard a patient of mine, on a minimum wage, say they would never vote Labour because "Jeremy Corbyn didn't wear a poppy".

We live in a country full of pillocks.

I agree with you op. I've often likened the Tory supporters to those who support football clubs - doesn't matter if they get the wrong manager, sign the wrong players, play the wrong plays and lose all the games, the supporters still back them to the hilt. Appropriate for sport but not politics.
Also agree with pp that often people consider themselves middle class and so can't bring themselves to vote labour, when in reality the 'middle class' are a lot wealthier than most people realise.

These posts are getting bloody tedious, why keep repeating the same thing OP- i swing vote. I would never have voted for a party lead by the anti-semite pseudo-communist Jeremy Corbyn and luckily most people wouldn't and that's why labour lost last time.
Tories make mistakes, labour make mistakes.

We are higher earners, DH is a higher earner who grew up in an ex-mining village with an abusive father and through a combination of hard work, planning and considered decisions became very successful. You had that opportunity too.

They'll be an election in a couple of years time and then labour will get in.

The Tory government at the time run by David Cameron recommended AGAINST Brexit.

Yes, I think politics is increasingly tribal but I can understand your religion analogy too.

I am a left winger. To me that means I have fundamental ideological beliefs that I filter my views through. It's tricky, life is complex. I can change my view in something or sometimes there just doesn't seem to be a solid correct answer.

Over the last 10 years I have been engaged in a lot of activism. I, obviously, got involved with groups of people who were doing this activism with me. I wouldn't go as far to say they were friends as we almost exclusively spoke about politics and activism but we were acquaintances.

Brexit was the first thing. I was a Brexit voter. I saw both sides of the debate but became increasingly confused by some of the claims made by remainers. As if the EU was a noble institution, completely ignoring what the Eurozone did to Greece and the horrific treatment of African immigrants. Nobody seemed very informed about it, their "side" were remainers ergo remain was the morally correct option.

The wheels really came off with Covid. I wasn't entirely anti lockdown but as a left winger it was horrifying to me that the Government putting restrictions on our personal life and yet working class people could be packed in like sardines in warehouses. My "left wing" friends said this was a fascist view. My left wing friends said that being against the government restricting your personal life ahead of restricting non-essential business was fascist.

It was because the right was anti lockdown. The actual issue didn't matter. The right were against it therefore it is good. I couldn't get a rational discussion about it out of any of them. All they would answer with was links of right wingers making speeches about lockdown. I just.... wtf.

YANBU
Never talk about religion or politics! Always upsets someone and results in an argument.

Agree it is tedious and it goes both ways. Labour loyals cannot see that who they put up at last election failed with the electorate and therefore suffered a large defeat.

Hmm, some of it is about basic core values.

I can't see myself ever voting Tory, because their values and mine fundamentally don't align. I think I will always vote left of centre, but I don't necessarily vote for the same party each time iyswim.

I don't really understand people who swing between Labour and Tory tbh becausethe values are so different. I assume that it must be because people don't really care about the underlying values and just vote pragmatically according to whatever think think will benefit them the most personally any given time? Or they vote for whoever looks most competent without worrying about the specifics of what they're aiming to do? I don't really get it.

Do you really think these endless threads insulting and berating people who don't vote the way you think they should is going make people change their minds?

People always go on about the top 1% or whatever as if the Tories are all their fault. Are you having a laugh! People with investment portfolios who are exposed to the financial markets are losing vast amounts money hand over fist. It's insane. It annoys me that the media are only suddenly picking up in this now, WTF - the £ has been on an interminable decline since at least January. Yet nothing on the news and everyone carrying on like La La Land. My DH is down almost £1 million in the space of a month. This didn't just happen on Friday. Where we live there are loads of bankers, ex-bankers and entrepreneurs -of the "type" reviled on MN - NONE OF THEM voted Tory in the last two elections. How could any of us have voted Tory to "Get Brexit Done" when we were so vehemently opposed to it and knew it would result in what we are seeing now. Why did you think boroughs m like Richmond-upon-Thames (full of bankers, ex bankers and entrepreneurs) are Lib Dem?

This was always on the cards - we are fast becoming a second rate economy. "The city" has foreseen it since Brexit. KK is desperate - he knows investment is flooding out if the U.K. and these latest tax policies are an admission that Brexit is a f* up and they need to attract money back in. The country is only waking up to reality now, fgs. It's the so-called "Red Wall" voters who got caught up in Cummings' "Take Back Control" bollocks that have put us where we are today. Does this look like taking back control?? It's tragic as the very people who voted for this are the ones who have the most to lose. Tragic.

Conservatism as a political philosophy is a very broad church. it’s not necessarily the Government of the day although they carry the name

Nah, the Conservative party is a broad church but conservatism itself is only superficially a broad church as non-conservative neo-libs started calling themselves conservative. Of course language evolves etc.

Economically Labour are the conservative ones at the moment. They want to maintain the status quo, tories want to blow it up.

Yes, I voted Conservative at the last election, and because Labour have now moved towards the centre, I will now vote for Labour. Time for a change, 12 years in government is long enough.

Yes this is what I mean. Great there are some sensible people out there. I can see why people did vote Tory last time, but I can't see why anyone would still support them.

I'm not berating people who don't think like me, I'm berating people who put their fingers in their ears and cover their eyes when faced with facts.

I have voted Tory in the past but I wouldn't do so now. For me it's always about data, not about tribalism

The SNP takes it beyond religion, it’s a cult. I know a SNP MP very well and it’s quite frightening how the cult like behaviour manifests, their life partner was always a staunch follower of another political party but when this person became MP it was a case of “change your political party or break your family up and you’ll not see your children”
This was reported to me by the partner, so first hand information, and I think the other parties will probably be the same

This is another area we're I clash with my "left wing" friends.

They love the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon (none of us are Scottish). I'm like "but.... they're nationalists...." apparently it doesn't count because of colonisation or something.

I can't honestly see how anyone could be a conservative right now unless you are very very wealthy and also a sociopath who doesn't give a toss about anyone else.

I’m not a (current) Conservative voter, and it utterly frustrates me that this sort of rhetoric is what my fellow centrist and left voters think encourages anyone to change their minds about anything. Firstly, it’s just lazy and hard of thinking. If you were really interested in why people vote Tory, what motivates them to continue to do so in the face of the current shambles, and how to engage with people on a political level so that they might be willing to consider their position and whether it’s current and where their views really lie any more, there are plenty of things you do to enlighten yourself.

So yes, broadly I agree with you: like some people with a religion, you choose to express yours in the same vein as “your God is not the true God and you are wrong, how could you be so stupid as to not believe in my God, you deserve to burn in eternal hell.” And look how often that sort of attitude attracts converts.

Gosh, just for a moment I thought this might not be one of the endless boring let’s bash the Tories and vote for someone who thinks that men have a cer ——x instead.

what a shame

But aren’t you displaying exactly the behaviour you abhor I.e. Labour is good Tory is bad?
Why not engage with people and find out why they hold certain views rather than make them ‘prove’ them.
Im working class and old enough to have lived under both Labour and Tory governments and tbh my life has been affected more by my personal choices rather than what government was in power.

Yes I thought this!

I vote depending on circumstances and policies at the time, so have actually voted for all the main parties at some point. I know people who say they will always vote Labour for example so I get where OP is coming from with the religion comparison, it doesn’t make sense to blindly follow one party. Parties have all changed so much over the years.

So many things have happened in the last few years that I just don't understand. I think of myself as an empiricist, I look at the information available and make a decision. But so many people don't operate like this. They "believe" in a political party, or a politician, and then proceed to ignore absolutely everything else.

So the implication being everyone who doesn't think and behave like you is an idiot?

Is politics isn't like religion? No, or not much. It's more like people.

Your second paragraph contradicts your first.

Op is talking about the Tribalism that affects all parties and has clearly said she doesn’t berate those who vote/think differently to her.
Nor has she said who she will vote for, only that she has voted Conservative in the past.

“I can't honestly see how anyone could be a conservative right now unless you are very very wealthy and also a sociopath who doesn't give a toss about anyone else” sounds very much like berating those who vote and think differently to her to me. I’d be interested to hear your alternative definition of “berate.”

I'm not berating people because they think differently to me I am asking how on Earth one could support the tories right now based on the evidence available

I clearly said that I have voted for various parties, I am not a staunch labour is good Tory is bad person - I have said that. I'm asking how one can take this kind of lifelong position irrespective of what's going on.