To think politics is like religion?

[thenorthsea]

So many things have happened in the last few years that I just don't understand. I think of myself as an empiricist, I look at the information available and make a decision. But so many people don't operate like this. They "believe" in a political party, or a politician, and then proceed to ignore absolutely everything else.

I can't honestly see how anyone could be a conservative right now unless you are very very wealthy and also a sociopath who doesn't give a toss about anyone else. The tories have completely decimated the country in multiple ways, economically, culturally, socially, reputationally... it's just so sad. They have also lied to peoples faces over and over and over again. They look after their own wealth whilst taking that of normal people. They are odious. They are not smart. They are arrogant. And I talk about the current crop - conservatives of yesteryear were not all like this.

Similar things are seen in the US - people will support trump despite all the evidence of his ill deeds and damage to the country etc. You want to think it wouldn't happen here but it does.

I feel like I'm going mad sometimes. Is there anyone out there who previously voted Tory who has now changed their mind? Or is it just fingers in ears and lalala?

[Miffee]

@JudgeRindersMinder

@Thebestwaytoscareatory
”The SNP have said repeatedly that "It doesn't matter where you come from, if Scotland is your home, and you live here and you feel you have a stake in the country, you are Scottish and you have as much say over the future of the country as any other Scottish person".”

much like they say if you think you are female then you are female then 🙄

I cringed at your anaolgy initally but actually....why do we even need anything specific for women if all its means is somebody saying they are one?

Why does Scottish independence even matter matter if its just based on who sleeps on one side of an arbitrary line?

"Civic" nationalism is so fucking empty.

[Miffee]

No, they don't give a shit about "self determination".

[JudgeRindersMinder]

@Thebestwaytoscareatory
”The SNP have said repeatedly that "It doesn't matter where you come from, if Scotland is your home, and you live here and you feel you have a stake in the country, you are Scottish and you have as much say over the future of the country as any other Scottish person".”

much like they say if you think you are female then you are female then 🙄

[Cheeselog]

Religion and politics are linked for me in that I have a moral compass and so I’ve never voted Tory because I think we have a moral duty to help the poor.
I’m a Christian and find Christians supporting conservative parties a bit baffling, particularly the Republicans in the US.

[MsPincher]

@Miffee

This is another area we're I clash with my "left wing" friends.

They love the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon (none of us are Scottish). I'm like "but.... they're nationalists...." apparently it doesn't count because of colonisation or something.

may they should explain it to you as there’s nothing wrong with self determination for the Scottish people? Also am a bit dubious about the tale of SNP MPs not being allowed to date anyone of another party. Kezia Dugdale was going out with an SNP MSP when she was leader of the Labour Party and is now married to her.

[entropynow]

Funny how it's always The Other Side who are blind followers of a False Religion without intelligence or conscience. Not like we enlightened ones🙄

[Sweetpeasaremadeforbees]

I vote depending on circumstances and policies at the time, so have actually voted for all the main parties at some point. I know people who say they will always vote Labour for example so I get where OP is coming from with the religion comparison, it doesn’t make sense to blindly follow one party. Parties have all changed so much over the years.

Yes I agree with this.

But OP do you know many people who are still planning to vote Conservative after the last few days? In the past I've voted Conservative because for me, you need to have a healthy economy that brings in taxes to pay for decent public services. I voted for Tony Blair/Labour and with their spending and PFIs and sell off of gold etc, they left the economy in a dreadful state and we had austerity for God knows how many years afterwards so I'm not sure I trust Labour on the economy. Plus I loathe them for their stance on self-ID and women's rights.

But LT and KK have managed to fuck up the economy in a matter of days so obviously the Tories are currently completely useless as well.

If there was a GE I don't know who I'd vote for because I find them all crap. I'm starting to see why people just don't engage and bother voting.

[thenorthsea]

Thank you @whatkatydid2013 , I agree

[whatkatydid2013]

I get what OP is saying. I’d say my political views are generally slightly left of centre. If the Conservatives had fronted someone in the mould of David Cameron I’d have voted for them rather than Jeremy Corbyn. My main issue with him wasn’t the talks to terrorists/communist stuff but more I felt he was too idealistic and uncompromising. Liz Truss is the same just her ideology is totally different. To me having politicians like that in charge is always dangerous because however intelligent they may be the lack of ability to be objective and take advice means they will push their agenda at absolutely any cost. Last election was a choice between a rock and a hard place. An uncompromising idealist or a man with no integrity whatsoever. I was hoping wildly for a hung parliament and someone having to negotiate with the SNP & Lib Dems to form a government. This time around if there was a general election with a choice of Labour under Kier Starmer, who is leaning towards centre and while a tad dull is someone who has integrity and is not an ideologue or Conservatives under Liz Truss then I’d struggle to understand why anyone would think Liz Truss was a better option for the country. I know the whole at least she knows what a woman is bit but I struggle to see how that matters so much more than everything else that it’s worth throwing the U.K. economy and workers rights away over. Maybe if you have a great local Conservative MP and a rubbish alternative with the other parties that might sway you since you are not a fan of any of the leaders. Also I guess the concern is that Labour win and then manage to get rid of their moderate leader and replace with someone way to the left. As long as the PM holds such a strong sway on the direction the party will take we likely need something in place that means you can’t oust one without having to call an election to give people faith they will get (broadly) what they voted for

[Miffee]

You could have saved a lot of words there.

It's called "civic" nationalism. It's still nationalism and I still oppose it on ideological grounds.

[Thebestwaytoscareatory]

@Miffee

This is another area we're I clash with my "left wing" friends.

They love the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon (none of us are Scottish). I'm like "but.... they're nationalists...." apparently it doesn't count because of colonisation or something.

The SNP = Scottish National (not Nationalist) Party. Of course many described them as a nationalist party but they are not nationaist in the tradional sense of the word. Nationalism is defined as the "identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations."

The major difference between the SNP and other nationalist type parties such as UKIP or the old BNP is that the SNP is aligned to civic nationalism and not ethnic nationalism.

The SNP have said repeatedly that "It doesn't matter where you come from, if Scotland is your home, and you live here and you feel you have a stake in the country, you are Scottish and you have as much say over the future of the country as any other Scottish person".

Considering that the main political party in Scotland has stated that anyone from anywhere can consider themselves Scottish if they live here, that Scotland, generally speaking, has a much more left leaning / socialist outlook, is much less insular than England, AND considering we are apparently detrimental to England as part of the union then I'm not really sure you could describe the SNP or their supporters as nationalist.

Oh and the SNP minister for transport is married to former Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale so there clearly isn't any issue with partners or spouses having different political opinions, the example in the PP is more likely just an arsehole MP and partner more than anything else (which I'm sure we can agree are abundant in all parties).

[thenorthsea]

In fact some of these responses totally prove my point - I'm asking how and why one could support the conservatives right now and all I get back is a bunch of defensive, tribal replies (amongst the sensible ones, thank you)

[thenorthsea]

I clearly said that I have voted for various parties, I am not a staunch labour is good Tory is bad person - I have said that. I'm asking how one can take this kind of lifelong position irrespective of what's going on.

[thenorthsea]

I'm not berating people because they think differently to me I am asking how on Earth one could support the tories right now based on the evidence available

[ComtesseDeSpair]

@Tanith

Op is talking about the Tribalism that affects all parties and has clearly said she doesn’t berate those who vote/think differently to her.
Nor has she said who she will vote for, only that she has voted Conservative in the past.

“I can't honestly see how anyone could be a conservative right now unless you are very very wealthy and also a sociopath who doesn't give a toss about anyone else” sounds very much like berating those who vote and think differently to her to me. I’d be interested to hear your alternative definition of “berate.”

[Tanith]

Op is talking about the Tribalism that affects all parties and has clearly said she doesn’t berate those who vote/think differently to her.
Nor has she said who she will vote for, only that she has voted Conservative in the past.

[Abitofalark]

Is politics isn't like religion? No, or not much. It's more like people.

Your second paragraph contradicts your first.

[PolarPolly27]

So many things have happened in the last few years that I just don't understand. I think of myself as an empiricist, I look at the information available and make a decision. But so many people don't operate like this. They "believe" in a political party, or a politician, and then proceed to ignore absolutely everything else.

So the implication being everyone who doesn't think and behave like you is an idiot?

[TempName01]

@Fairyliz

But aren’t you displaying exactly the behaviour you abhor I.e. Labour is good Tory is bad?
Why not engage with people and find out why they hold certain views rather than make them ‘prove’ them.
Im working class and old enough to have lived under both Labour and Tory governments and tbh my life has been affected more by my personal choices rather than what government was in power.

Yes I thought this!

I vote depending on circumstances and policies at the time, so have actually voted for all the main parties at some point. I know people who say they will always vote Labour for example so I get where OP is coming from with the religion comparison, it doesn’t make sense to blindly follow one party. Parties have all changed so much over the years.

[Fairyliz]

But aren’t you displaying exactly the behaviour you abhor I.e. Labour is good Tory is bad?
Why not engage with people and find out why they hold certain views rather than make them ‘prove’ them.
Im working class and old enough to have lived under both Labour and Tory governments and tbh my life has been affected more by my personal choices rather than what government was in power.

[Allthegoodnamesarechosen]

Gosh, just for a moment I thought this might not be one of the endless boring let’s bash the Tories and vote for someone who thinks that men have a cer ——x instead.

what a shame

[ComtesseDeSpair]

I can't honestly see how anyone could be a conservative right now unless you are very very wealthy and also a sociopath who doesn't give a toss about anyone else.

I’m not a (current) Conservative voter, and it utterly frustrates me that this sort of rhetoric is what my fellow centrist and left voters think encourages anyone to change their minds about anything. Firstly, it’s just lazy and hard of thinking. If you were really interested in why people vote Tory, what motivates them to continue to do so in the face of the current shambles, and how to engage with people on a political level so that they might be willing to consider their position and whether it’s current and where their views really lie any more, there are plenty of things you do to enlighten yourself.

So yes, broadly I agree with you: like some people with a religion, you choose to express yours in the same vein as “your God is not the true God and you are wrong, how could you be so stupid as to not believe in my God, you deserve to burn in eternal hell.” And look how often that sort of attitude attracts converts.

[Miffee]

@JudgeRindersMinder

The SNP takes it beyond religion, it’s a cult. I know a SNP MP very well and it’s quite frightening how the cult like behaviour manifests, their life partner was always a staunch follower of another political party but when this person became MP it was a case of “change your political party or break your family up and you’ll not see your children”
This was reported to me by the partner, so first hand information, and I think the other parties will probably be the same

This is another area we're I clash with my "left wing" friends.

They love the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon (none of us are Scottish). I'm like "but.... they're nationalists...." apparently it doesn't count because of colonisation or something.

[JudgeRindersMinder]

The SNP takes it beyond religion, it’s a cult. I know a SNP MP very well and it’s quite frightening how the cult like behaviour manifests, their life partner was always a staunch follower of another political party but when this person became MP it was a case of “change your political party or break your family up and you’ll not see your children”
This was reported to me by the partner, so first hand information, and I think the other parties will probably be the same

[thenorthsea]

@Parky04

Yes, I voted Conservative at the last election, and because Labour have now moved towards the centre, I will now vote for Labour. Time for a change, 12 years in government is long enough.

Yes this is what I mean. Great there are some sensible people out there. I can see why people did vote Tory last time, but I can't see why anyone would still support them.

I'm not berating people who don't think like me, I'm berating people who put their fingers in their ears and cover their eyes when faced with facts.

I have voted Tory in the past but I wouldn't do so now. For me it's always about data, not about tribalism