AIBU to believe rich people should contribute much more?

[marcusian]

A bit tongue in cheek, but given that its almost impossible for poorly paid workers including care workers and nurses to strike, and that the government have given people earning over £100K a massive pay rise, what other ways could the most wealthy be made to pay?

My idea: - a new LUXURIES tax (think 50% VAT) on things ordinary people cant buy, like superyachts, airplanes, £10K+ dining tables, a box at wimbledon, £500+ handbags, £100+ football boots!

AIBU - No - they should pay more and heres my ideas how they should do it!
AIBU - Yes - leave wealthy people alone, its not their fault

@MrAutumnal

I should be huh

You really are obtuse aren't you?
You are the one who has been throwing around accusations at high earners of avoiding tax, stamping their feet, hoarding wealth etc.

YOU are the one making sweeping unproven statements.
And yes, I'm going to take it "personally" when someone tried to avoid actually having a reasoned debate by slinging the words "posh" and "privileged" at me because they cannot think of a decent argument, and especially so when it could not be further from the truth.
Some people earn more.
Get over it.
If you don't like it do something about it instead of whining on here.

Oh God, still banging away 😂

@Lassie76

Nope.

Not obtuse.

Higher earners do evade tax. Thats a statement of fact. Not a personal accusation. Lower earners evade tax too. But the op is about higher earner taxes

They also do hoard wealth. Again statement of fact.

They maybe don't stamp their feet but some on this thread do seem might temper tantrumy

"Higher earners do evade tax. Thats a statement of fact."

What all of them?

Have you conducted a national survey,?

" They also do hoard wealth. Again statement of fact."

You mean as in, buy a house? Save / invest?

What would you like them to do? Someone gets paid £100k - "Oh no sorry. Topgub only earns £30k so I hear. Please take £70k back..."

Yabu, life should include luxuries and if you can afford them, get them. We are here to live not exist and scrape by. Making it harder to enjoy luxuries is not the answer and nor is blaming the rich. Don't get my wrong, I haven't got a super yacht etc but I enjoy seeing those who do. It romanticises the idea of life to me. It's become so normalised to dislike any symbol of wealth nowadays but taking them away would solve nothing, people just think its a fix because taking off of what they see right infront of them takes the responsibility off of themselves. I know several really wealthy people who are also philanthropic, generous and great people. They use their wealth to create opportunities and indulge in luxuries when they like aswell, because life is for living. Before ever deciding what other people can and can't buy with their money I'd focus on myself and really examine whether I'm actually putting enough energy into my own success.

What does hoarding wealth mean? If you got rich tomorrow from building your own business and paid everything you’re asked to in tax, what amount of your money would you expect to give away and who’s lucky enough to get your money? I’m an author. I’ve written 7 books. I write at night time and get up at 4 a few mornings a week and I study every little aspect of the market, the craft, all of it. When other people are in bed, reading or watching Netflix I’m working with the goal to someday make a wage and if I get rich someday I’d rather people didn’t turn on me and ask for me to give all my money away!!!!

It’s sad that this thread turned a bit into a stereotype fest!

As someone from a very poor background who work in a profession that’s usually low earning but who climbed up to work with the « uber wealthy » after years of working for the average or even low-earning families, I will say this:

• When working for families on a low combined salary I was earning, by default, a low income.

As a result I was paying little to no taxes, and was eligible for benefits.

• Working for the rich, I now happen to make 6 figures

As a result, I am now paying A LOT more in taxes (which is fine by me), and of course, as it should be, don’t get any benefits or additional governmental help I used to be eligible to.

My point being that I do the exact same job but by earning more I am already contributing much more into the system than I used to, in one year I now pay in taxes what I would have paid in 10 years with my old salary. I am the same person and do the same job yet, it seems like people in this thread would have no problem with me participating very little into the system when I was earning little but now feeling like I am not paying enough even though I am paying 10x more than I was even 3 years ago.

In one hand people say the Uber rich should pay their staff better but then go on to hate staff who are paid well, so seems like a never ending cycle.

Personality, I don’t mind paying taxes, I benefited from not paying taxes or paying little taxes + benefits when I was earning peanuts so only fair that I now pay back into the system according to my earnings, but I have a serious issue with people thinking people who earn more don’t pay enough or don’t pay their fair share because what would be the fair share? How come me paying in a year in taxes what would have taken me 10 years of work to pay before, not fair enough? And not enough? How come it would have been okay for me to stay on my lower wage and participate very little in taxes for the rest of my life (all while potentially also benefiting from financial helps from the system) but is not okay and “selfish” for me to pay the taxes I owe and keep the rest of my earnings to enjoy?

I just don’t understand why high earning people are seen as the villain, even when they do pay tens of thousands or even millions in taxes each year. And yes I do gawk at the fortune some of the people I work for have and yes it seems very unfair that a few have so much when too many have little, but also a lot of them do pay what they are asked in taxes, they do pay taxes on everything they buy (which is a lot more by default than most), they do pay a lot of their (especially household) staff way better than smaller businesses or average earning individuals which means that they do pay a lot in contribution for their staff’s salary who will also then go on to also pay more in taxes etc… (vs a nanny who is paid the bare minimum for example) and depending on the business(es) they own they might also bringing in wealth and labor into this country via their products/services. Does it make it less outrageous that they have so much money when plenty of none? No. But I think there is a gap between the assumption that they barely pay anything and the hope (from a lot of society) that there will be a world in in which 90% of their wealth will go back to the people, which is the reality that they do already pay a lot more than most and while they could always pay more I don’t necessarily see why success should be punished.

Personally I am against more as I do think taxes are high enough and that one main issue is in finding how come a good chunk of the abled population doesn’t work and therefore don’t pay taxes when there are currently lots of industries lacking workers and it feels unfair to keep taxing the rich without tackling this issues. But mostly because I do believe that if one has worked hard to earn what they have (irrelevant of the amount) they should be able to enjoy it while alive.

My preferred solution personally would be that upon death of any individual only a max amount of money and assets (same amount for everyone so should be high enough but not in hundreds of millions of dollars) can be passed down. (Similar to how in Asia you can rent land but not buy it properly and after 100 years the land + any house on it goes back to the state). So most of the wealth do end up coming back into the economy, kids of wealthy people still would get more upon death of their relatives than others, but not ridiculous amount, and it would then be up to them to use that inheritance and their skills to rebuild their wealth if they want to enjoy more money and have the cycle repeat itself. So nobody is hoarding money but people are still incensitized to work hard and reach their goal as you still have the possibility to be massively rich when alive but just don’t have the ability to pass down your wealth to the next generation.

Because they might actually have to do some work instead of whining about those of us that do. I dont think I've ever seen such a big chip.

@Itsacafe

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/12/wealth-inequality-reasons-richest-global-gap

equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk

@memorial

Again, no chip.

Just facts.

Wonder why everyone is so upset and threatened by them?

You literally stated every high earner avoids tax. So yes I am personally affronted.
I am what you would consider a high earner. I have worked bloody hard to get here and still work bloody hard to earn my high income.
I also contribute massively to the economy. Pay tax on everything. Pay every single penny of tax I owe (am in a profession where probity is vital). I have very little savings and disposable income because of a very nasty divorce and some bad choices.
So am not threatened but insulted by your assertion as if fact that I am avoiding tax and hoarding wealth.
You are frankly ridiculous.

Saying something is a fact doesn’t make it a fact though.

You are speaking in general terms “higher earners”, “lower earners” as if it’s one homogeneous group who all indulge in the same behaviors.

How can putting everyone in one bag be ever considered factual? It’s as if I say “British people LOVE tea!" and present it as a fact. It can’t be factual when plenty of Brits don’t like nor drink tea and it’s a bit silly to insist that’s a fact just because it’s a stereotype that is proven to be true for a chunk of the population discussed but definitely not for all.

I didnt say all.

I said higher earners and lower earners evade tax.

This is a true factual statement

I didnt mention how many of each.

I'm OK with you finding me ridiculous. Easier than to prove me wrong seemingly

I'm sure there are people out there claiming full benefits while doing cash in hand jobs.
Then there's those that are sub renting out their tax payer funded social housing property for a nice little earner.
So not only the rich that are on the fiddle.

You automatically say all when you don’t specify though.

Again, would you consider the statement « Brits love tea! » factual on the basis a chunk of British people do or non-factual on the basis a chunk of British people don’t?

There is no proving you wrong or even agreeing with you when you make vague statements and present them as facts.

If you want to talk facts, talk facts. How many high earning people is there? How many of them evade taxes? Where are your sources to back up your figures (which for now you haven’t shared) and your facts? And what does the result of those figures say or suggests to us? For now you speak about facts with no figures, no sources and no quantification.

You are right that SOME high earners evade tax as do lower earners, but it’s the figure that matters. If I say Brits love tea but only 1 Brit out 10 love tea, what I am saying isn’t a fact even though at least a few Brits love tea, now if 10 out of 10 love tea, I am in fact speaking facts. If it’s 9 out of 10 it’s still not a factual statement but it does show a pattern in favor of my argument. See the difference? You are purposefully not stating figures though and remaining vague because you don’t have them nor know what point you are trying to make.

I've posted links about wealth inequality.

Its been discussed throughout the thread that if you tax well off people 'too much' then will evade tax

Its well known and documented that big business evade and avoid tax.

But when I say wealthy/rich people evade tax its seen as a personal insult and a lie.

I do know what point I'm making. Clearly.

Wealth inequality is wrong. Its made purposefully worse by those at the top/those with the most money.

We should be trying to tackle it not ignoring it because people who think they are wealthy are scared they'll be next.

(If someone said brits love tea I'd think yup. They do. Even though I know lots dont)

Yabu

@Topgub I don’t think you grasp that the way you formulate your sentences imply that you don’t understand the difference between a group as a whole and a few within that group.

We ALL do know some rich people evade taxes, we also do know some people on the lower end avoid paying taxes and work under the table so what does that tell us?

Because for each rich person who evade taxes plenty more don’t, and for each low earning person who claim benefits because they don’t want to work, plenty more only claim them out of necessity and work their arse off and would work more if they could.

So what’s your point? We all agree that it’s shitty some people evade taxes, people aren’t taking offense at you saying that. People are taking offense at you purposefully using generalist language that imply that all high earning people evade taxes when most actually do pay taxes even though, you know full well yourself that only a chunk of the high earning population fit the profile you are describing.

So it’s weird you pretend you don’t understand why people take offense, when it’s the equivalent of saying “people on benefits are lazy and abuse the system” when you intend to only refer to a very small chunk of people who are actually on benefits for the wrong reasons and taking advantages of loopholes and then be shocked that the majority of people on benefits who are claiming for genuine reasons and necessities are offended and taking it personally that you are implying people on benefits are lazy and abusing the system as if you are stating facts but of course facts that don’t involve them and they should somehow know it’s not them you are talking about even though you purposefully chose to use vocabulary that implied everybody.

Seems very disingenuous!

But bottom line you aren’t really saying anything we don’t already know and don’t already agree with and are just weirdly holding all high earning people accountable for what a few Uber rich people do just because?

How do you intend on holding accountable the rich people who actually evade taxes in the UK by legally moving abroad for taxes reasons? What’s your plan?

@Linning

Nah.

Your summary completely ignores the context of the comments. Maybe you should read back.

Seems disingenuous to me to take offence to something that doesn't apply to you personally.

Seems disingenuous to pretend the vast majority of posters haven't been discussing things in general terms or equating rich with anything above 100k. In fact I've pointed put a few times there is a difference between 100k and people who are actually rich. People with actual power.

I have no plan (other than the few I've already suggested) to tackle wealth inequality or massive tax evasion.

It would need a global agreement.

Maybe when we've fucked the planet a bit more?

Topgub - Some people do evade tax .Did you just realise this?

If you want to make an actual meaningful point, you need actual evidence. A opinion piece in a newspaper article tells people nothing quantifiable.

Define what you mean by 'the rich' - 1 million? 100 million? Define how many there are. Provide evidence of who is evading tax. Name names. How are they hoarding it - what is the trend? Where? To what extent? Who and what precisely are you talking about?

I'm sure some uber wealthy du evade tax - we all know this. But just chanting "the rich evade tax - fact" is beyond mind- numbing. Nobody is an economist on here, but nor are people 6 years-old so please stop arguing in such bland, boring, simplistic terms. Try to think about it in a slightly more relevant and nuanced way.

@Itsacafe

Lol.

Why can none of you debate points without getting personal.

talk about bland and boring. They're not even good insults.

If you have a point to make other than I dont like your opinion but can't actually argue against it, I'm all ears

"It would need a global agreement."

Oh well, why didn't you say...,

How much for you earn Topgub? I can find the actual evidence for you if you like (Google the 'elephant curve'), but it's something like a person on a low wage in the U.K. is still wealthier than 75% if the world. So are YOU taxed enough? Presumably you'd be fine to have your income redistributed to perhaps the average person in Albania, or Afghanistan? Where do you draw the line with your "global agreements?" Where does it end?

@Itsacafe

Oh I'm part of the problem, globally. 100%

Even inthe uk I could probably do more than I do.

All relative, eh?