To send DS to Welsh speaking secondary?

[HeartShapedBoxes]

Recently had to move in with my mum and found that the English speaking secondary school in catchment is awful. Really, really bad. There is a Welsh speaking secondary school - but DS doesn’t speak much Welsh. Would I be completely mad to send him there if I can? He’s in year 6 so it’s a pressing problem right now

[AndSoFinally]

No way. Mine have been all through Welsh primary but i won't be sending them to Welsh secondary because none of us speak Welsh and it would be too tough for them to manage independently, even though their Welsh is pretty good

[NoYouSirName]

That was my parents’ thinking andsofinally and it was a mistake. I’m still sad to be less confident in Welsh than in English.

I’m sure the dc can translate anything but our Welsh language secondary will provide a translation on request for parents.

[CeriBerry]

Just a note to those of you pointing out how terrible it is that Welsh medium schools encourage the pupils to speak Welsh rather than English. A hundred years ago, Welsh children were literally caned for speaking Welsh in school. It had a hugely detrimental effect on the Welsh language (as English was seen as the language of ‘advancement’) and now you’re surprised that we’re trying to safeguard and encourage its use?

[justasking111]

Our local Welsh secondary school has the immersion units, I know children who went there done well and gone into university to study sciences, medicine. It's down to the child. I would try it, check the Estyn report

[MrsArchchancellorRidcully]

DH went to a welsh speaking secondary by choice and he left yr6 barely speaking any welsh. Once he got into yr 7 he soon picked up welsh and by yr8 was flying. He was and is very good at languages in general. But you could do it if DS wants to and is willing to learn.

[greenteafiend]

I live in Japan and have bilingual kids, as do most of my friends.

I've seen all kinds of situations when it comes to moving kids about from one language system to another--not just kids entering Japanese schools at later ages, but also (say) German-speaking kids being put into an English speaking international school when their English is minimal, or expat friends of mine deciding to go to France and put their kids in French school when none of them have much French

Welsh is a little different, because all the kids at the school will speak English as well as Welsh, I assume. That will make the social side of things easier--but on the other hand, it may also slow down acquisition of the language. If kids (naturally and understandably) switch to English whenever they speak to him, his acquisition of Welsh will be slower than it would if he was popped into a Korean or Spanish school where the kids didn't speak much English.

I've seen Japanese parents putting their kids into international school with no English, and getting all cross about the slowness of their child's English progress--the reality is that most of the kids at the international school probably speak Japanese if they're growing up in Japan, and tend to switch Japanese when the newbie kid with little English speaks to them. These kids can learn, of course, but it is definitely a slower process.

Do Welsh speaking schools have any separate tracks for kids who come in at older ages with little Welsh? If he can do his academic subjects in English while doing Welsh study at the right level and doing his social stuff in Welsh speaking classrooms and environments, that's perfectly doable. If he's expected to do all his academic subjects in Welsh AND SIT EXAMS IN THEM AT SOME POINT IN THE NEAR FUTURE, that is a bit different.

By secondary level, kids are doing fairly serious work in their languages--learning history and chemistry, writing essays, doing complicated word problems in maths. Trying to get to that level of fluency in a second language that he doesn't speak much will take time. Does he have time? Do you trust that he is really going to nail all this in enough time to get some decent scores in whatever qualifications he will go on to take? Is he the type of boy who is prepared to really really go for it and do all the hard slog of mastering a language to full proficiency in a couple of years (including literacy, learning a big vocabulary of specialized, scientific and high-level worlds) while simultaneously being chill enough to be OK with being the struggler in the class for a long time? A few kids can cope with this. Others (once they have acquired some initial superficial fluency in everyday language) start to plateau and get frustrated. Many get depressed or lose confidence, because they have this experience of going into school and being the weakest person in the class, and you have to be quite resilient to be OK with feeling like that for months and years.

Mumsnet tends to be full of people going on about how kids are "sponges" when it comes to languages. But getting to "everyday/playground-level fluency" in a language, is very different to the kind of mastery that you need in order to write an essay in the same language and get a decent grade. It takes many years to get to that level.

[Isausernameavailable]

Could a private English school be an option?

[greenteafiend]

If you live in Wakes why wouldn't you want him to speak the language. Kids pick it up so fast, plus as its a dead language there is a lot if English words in there. After a year I think he'd be more or less fluent


It's not a dead language! It's a living language that's used day to day in large parts of Wales, and is increasingly spoken well as a second-language among young people across most of the rest of the country.

Kids can attain superficial fluency in a language quickly, but getting to the level where you can write a decent essay on "solids, liquids and gases" for Chemistry (for example) takes years.

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure Welsh has developed its own Welsh-roots-derived words for most of the academic stuff (like science, geography, social sciences, mathematical terms and all that). No doubt there will be English derived words as well in some domains.

[KirstenBlest]

Kids can attain superficial fluency in a language quickly, but getting to the level where you can write a decent essay on "solids, liquids and gases" for Chemistry (for example) takes years.
Would you really need to do that?

[cavia]

OP he just won't cope. I went to an English medium secondary with some kids who had been to a Welsh medium primary so obviously they were fluent in both and even they really struggled with subjects like history where they'd only ever been taught subject specific vocabulary in Welsh.. and these were kids who had the advantage of english all around them too

[DownNative]

@Brechdanjamcaws

Do you live in Wales? Are you Welsh? I’ve just told you I live in North Wales, there’s no point quoting me statistics when I’m telling you, where I live most if not all daily stuff is done through Welsh language. I go to the shop, I speak Welsh. I go swimming, I speak welsh. Go to a cafe, I order in welsh.
Cardiff is mainly English speaking (I should know, I used to work there).
Gwynedd is very welsh. That’s why Plaid always get in. The OP’s situation really does depend on where in Wales she lives which is why I said in North Wales…
anyway, @HeartShapedBoxes my welsh language secondary allowed me to do all my work in english despite me being fluent. The teachers had english and welsh sheets and pupils could choose for themselves. Think you should visit the welsh language school to get a feel for it before you are put off!

On the contrary, the statistics are highly relevant as it completely destroys a PPs attempted comparison with France ignoring the fact French is the majority language there.

Fact is, 70% of people in Wales don't speak any Welsh at all. Most of Wales doesn't. OP is more likely to hear English spoken than Welsh in Wales just as they are in Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Anecdotes doesn't trump evidenced statistics.

[XmasElf10]

Speak to the schools, catchments are often less of an issue in North Wales. My DD goes to an out of catchment Secondary because it's English language and I didn't want to send her to the Welsh language school. If you call the school they'll give you a good indication of the likelihood of getting a spot. It's totally normal by me for kids to go 20 / 30 mins in the car to school. The big issue is busses aren't normally provided to out of catchment locations.

[XmasElf10]

And I live in a small North Welsh village and I don't speak Welsh (have lived here since I was 4). Yes plenty of folks do and I hear Welsh in the street and I can manage a Bore da but the locals know the English language speakers and greet me in English. The local shop has bilingual folks but I shop in English. The owner of the pub is English but some of the bar staff are local and can speak Welsh. I use local builder, window cleaner, etc.. and I do all my business in English. It is POSSIBLE to use Welsh a lot here but if you naturally gravitate to English nothing forces you into using Welsh except school.

[mayflower21]

I've done that in the same year. It wasn't English/Welsh for me, struggled for half a year but was ok after that.

[KimberleyClark]

@DownNative

On the contrary, the statistics are highly relevant as it completely destroys a PPs attempted comparison with France ignoring the fact French is the majority language there.

Fact is, 70% of people in Wales don't speak any Welsh at all. Most of Wales doesn't. OP is more likely to hear English spoken than Welsh in Wales just as they are in Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

Anecdotes doesn't trump evidenced statistics.

70% of people in Wales don’t speak Welsh. But the 30% who do are not evenly distributed throughout Wales. There are areas where the percentage of Welsh speakers is anything between 75-90%.

[Musti]

@KirstenBlest

Kids can attain superficial fluency in a language quickly, but getting to the level where you can write a decent essay on "solids, liquids and gases" for Chemistry (for example) takes years.
Would you really need to do that?

It doesn’t take years. It didn’t take me years. You just have to be learning and doing those type of essays in the language that is needed.

If for example you only use a language conversationally, you’re going to struggle writing an essay. But that is true of native speakers. If they don’t learn and practice how to write essays or blogs or business letters, then they will struggle,

[BasedInDublin]

That's a really really difficult situation OP. I'm English as is DH. We experienced similar challenges here. We had no Irish language ability, and zero interest in it, but if you want to speak about C++ we're the right couple! But for multiple reasons logistics/friends/school rating our kid went to Irish language primary school. I expected it to be a big problem, and we had a backup plan, but it all worked out OK. I was especially concerned about being able to support our DS on math and science subjects, and all the workbooks were available in English.

We had the same concern, only amplified, for secondary school here. DS wanted to stay with his friends so again stayed in the Irish language school. At this level neither of us could support past 1st year, could that be a problem for you? Luckily our DS was academically very good, and the school excellent. However, several kids did leave that school after the junior cert and transfer to an English speaking school.

It's a really difficult issue. We never felt the level of pressure that you do, since we had a backup school option if everything failed. I'd be very concerned about sending a child to a poorly rated school. But I'd also be concerned about the extent of language change at year 6.

Recommendation: What I did for secondary school -> Speak to the school honestly and directly about your concerns. Tell them about your concerns. Ask them about the level of support your family could expect. Ask them if there are any other parents who have experienced similar situations, and would it be possible to speak with them. It's one more piece of important to help make a decision. Hope everything works out for you.

[DownNative]

@KimberleyClark

70% of people in Wales don’t speak Welsh. But the 30% who do are not evenly distributed throughout Wales. There are areas where the percentage of Welsh speakers is anything between 75-90%.

29% and they're mostly not fluent. 1% can speak Welsh, but never do.

[Hellocatshome]

@KirstenBlest

Kids can attain superficial fluency in a language quickly, but getting to the level where you can write a decent essay on "solids, liquids and gases" for Chemistry (for example) takes years.
Would you really need to do that?

Yes if you wanted to do well in exams and particularly take them to A level or University level.

[sponsabillaries]

Talk to the school. They may well have an immersion stream and if so he would be in a class with other Welsh learners. The learning curve is steep but he wouldn't be alone.

[PuntoEBasta]

@Hellocatshome

Yes if you wanted to do well in exams and particularly take them to A level or University level.

I had the impression that the Welsh medium A Levels were pretty niche in the sciences. Admittedly our school is technically bilingual (although now majority Welsh medium) but all A level teaching is English medium, with the obvious exception of Welsh Language.

[KirstenBlest]

@PuntoEBasta , you are not correct. All the teaching is in Welsh, apart from English.

[PuntoEBasta]

@KirstenBlest

@PuntoEBasta , you are not correct. All the teaching is in Welsh, apart from English.

I was not referring to all sixth form teaching in Wales. I am referring to the bilingual school 500m from where I sit now, where they have taken the decision to deliver all A-Level teaching in English medium as dividing students into Welsh and English medium groups meant that numbers were too low to make many courses viable.

[sunglassesonthetable]

Reading posts about Welsh and Irish schools prohibiting social conversations in other languages.
Thinking about schools in Whitechapel trying to stop kids from using Urdu or Sylheti.
They would find themselves in Human Rights Court for Oppressive policies.
How does it escape that kind of scrutiny?

@brianixon

oh stop being so daft.

It's a CHOICE english speaking families make. You don't HAVE to send your 1st language English children to Welsh Medium school. It's widely acknowledged that immersion is the best way to learn a language so that's why it happens. You can CHOOSE to send your child to English medium school if you want.
Court of Human Rights my arse.

My kids also play Welsh medium football and rugby ie Clubs that conduct all coaching in Welsh. Also After School Clubs etc.

You do sound uninformed .