To wonder about the political landscape of Europe?

[AspireMe]

Italy I'm not really surprised with regarding their politics, but Sweden!! Sweden was always upheld as the liberal utopia of Europe, what's going on!? Is it a rejection of mainstream media and the messages they publish? Are people turning their backs on the Left because they feel they aren't being listened to? Immigration? It's not just unique to these two countries, it's a pattern being repeated over the continent, and elsewhere.

I wonder if this is just a natural swing of the political pendulum or something deeper. And what the response will be.

You have just jumped on the first answer that confirms your view, there is a reason why Swedish and Danish left parties ran on policies of limiting immigration etc, it isn't because the ERG are more to the right of them, you are deliberately missing the nuance in the rise across the rest of the europe and trying to somehow excuse it as not being bad as a Tory gov.

Simplistic definitions of what is the correct way to vote shows a lack and what is right or wrong shows a lack of intelligence, I'm sure you would be in favour of the Tories bringing in the Swedish health care and benifits system?

I'm not so sure this phenomenon can be described in traditional European left vs right discourse. I'm keeping my eye on Turkey because very similiar sentiments about the cultural impact of immigration are starting to be voiced there too.

And that's a very interesting paradigm because it's not the usual liberal urban/coast versus conservative hinterland split that drives so much of Turkish politics. You also can't apply European - style perspectives about multiculturalism either.

Something is afoot and it's been coming for some time. I would argue it is because politicians in countries all across the world forgot they were not playing a game of global chess/Johnny Big Bollocks with other members of the global political elite, but were, in fact, supposed to govern their countries for the benefit of the people.

Current events in Iran are interesting to view in this regard. I think what we are starting to see is the end of an era of political "empires" built on bloc affiliations within the landscape of globalisation. What seems to be growing is a desire for localism across numerous micro and macro strata.

We shall see, I guess.

Sorry dear, spent far too long living in Singapore.

Your post resonates with me on so many levels. Whether I agree with you or not, what a great post.

I agree with everything you have stated by the way.

I imagine in your head that is a great come back, but it just cements your lack of intelligence, I also lived in Singapore, Shanghai, Guangzhou and visited northern china that if I made comment on here about what I had seen would be considered trolling.

The fact you didn't want to get into specifics shows you just wanted the correct answer, lets start with asking if the ERG are to the right of Denmark on immigration, especially from someone who lived in Singapore...

I'll add lack of intelligence to my CV.

Thank you for correcting me @Justanotherlurker I don't know how any of us would manage without you.

Yours humbly....

Looks like I have touched a nerve, but maybe when you ask a question and your first response is this

This is sort of what I was expecting. The UK is the country which were so eurosceptical that they left the EU, we are the problem.

Shows you do actually lack any kind of critical thought and intelligence, maybe you need to follow a few more people on twitter where leading questions such as 'is the erg more right wing than..' is low brow, you may have lived in singapore but you still haven't answered any points I have made to you ...

I would ask for a refund on your degree that let you work in Singapore if you have such a little englander view that we are the problem, with sweden/denmark/italy/france/germany all making policies that would outrage MN if any tory would even whisper.

You sound very angry @Justanotherlurker , the ERG are really rather right wing and yes it is quite possible that the UK is a problem.

Have a nice sleep.

Well yes, Sweden as a country have great PR. Honestly you'd think it the most progressive and adaptive country on the planet.

It's not. It's really not. They are polite, they are very welcoming, they pay a lot in taxes to help their own people, to avoid poverty and enrich living standards for all "Swedish People"...and that's the feel I got in where I lived in Lund "Swedish people" , and Lund is a university town so the demographic was young Europeans, you know the "voices of tomorrow" but yeah, suppose now those voices of tomorrow have now turned into the voices of today and they voted right leaning. 🤣🤷🏻‍♀️

What's the message? I was pleased they did that.

This hits the jackpot of anti woke drivel bingo! Wowzers

Sweden has been edging this way for at least a decade and it is desperately sad. Despite the racist party SD (Sverige Demokraterna, the Sweden Democrats) raking in the votes in the last couple of general elections, it's still not easy to find people who are prepared to admit to voting for them. The party has its roots in the Swedish neo-Nazi movement, not just in some vague ideological sense, but actually in terms of card-carrying membership by many of the founders and frontmen.

The ideas of 'sacrifice' and 'the greater good' has been ingrained in the Swedish psyche since before the creation of the Swedish welfare state and the idea of Folkhemmet in the 1920s; the notion that we make individual sacrifices in terms of personal wealth in the form of taxation in order to safeguard equality and protections for the most vulnerable. This policy of social democracy hasn't just been a 'nice to have', but a way of life and something that Swedes in the 20th century valued immensely. It has also been a social measure and standard to which individuals are held and actions and interactions measured up; woe betide the person who places individual gain above the principle of the greater good, however subtly. Swedes sniffed it out like a bad smell. And from it sprung a society which gave rise to all the stereotypes of a liberal, progressive people. It's largely been a fairly accurate reflection.

Sweden has always had a steady trickle of immigration, quite contrary to what a PP suggested upthread. Much of this has historically consisted of refugees who have felt a political kinship with Sweden: Chilean refugees fleeing the military junta during the 70s, for instance. Swedes have as a rule taken Sweden's role as a place of sanctuary from oppression very seriously and has enthusiastically welcomed those seeking safety.

The social structure has relied on groupthink and ideological buy-in and like a PP posted upthread, this is where Swedes come unstuck when integration fails to keep up. Swedes expect recognition of the cultural norm of egalitarianism and an active striving toward individual integration and are stumped to find places where neither is happening. Having lived in both countries, I occasionally think they could try taking a leaf out of Britain's book and lower the expectation for both and be a lot happier. But at what price? For instance, Sweden is a place where honour based violence has an incredibly high profile compared to in Britain where I don't see much reporting or discourse on this issue; Swedes apply stringent standards for what women and girls can reasonably expect life to look like, irrespective of cultural and religious background and immigration status, for instance, and consequently spend a huge amount of resources on this issue as honour based violence is endemic in Sweden. In the UK, I feel we sometimes border dangerously on cultural relativism and the racism of low expectations for women and girls.

ASwede "Having lived in both countries, I occasionally think they could try taking a leaf out of Britain's book and lower the expectation for both and be a lot happier."

do you mean lower the expectation for integration? Apologies if I have the wrong end of the stick.

my parents were overjoyed to come to Britain and become citizens. I find it upsetting to see people arrive in a country wanting to effectively create a mini version of somewhere else. It leads to terrible problems. I find myself faced with increased prejudice - understandably - because so many people now see it as a norm not to integrate. The vote in Sweden has not surprised me at all. There is a big difference between a multi ethnic society and a multi cultural one. Cultures which treat women badly are not cultures I want to get to know better.

because so many people now see it as a norm not to integrate.

So many people see it as right and a right to not integrate. Other nordic countries have been looking askance at Sweden's high immigration for years.

Ok @Mollyshoe if I'm talking drivel could you please explain why a high ranking labour party member was filmed at a women's rights rally screaming "FASCIST "at a baby

There are also lots of native English speakers who've lived in non-English speaking countries for many years, don't speak the local language apart from the odd word, only socialise with other English speakers etc. We tend to call them expats instead of immigrants but it's exactly the same thing - it definitely happens.

(Not arguing with you NorthStarRising, just giving another example to prove your point.)

Lol. Since when has a far right party had policies such as mass immigration (over one million immigrants came to the UK last year alone), mass expansion of the welfare state, highest taxes in history, slavishly following a green agenda (net zero) at all costs, allowing people to be arrested for stating basic biological facts on social media. Sounds more like what you would see under a far left government. The Overton Window has moved rapidly over the past few decades when all these things can be attributed to a far right party.

Emma, thanks for questioning that, I was tired and a bit facitious. I too am a child of immigrants who grew up in Sweden but have spent a lot of my adult life in the UK. I definitely didn't mean that any bar should be lowered, but was flippantly trying to point out that this is where Sweden comes unstuck, and is confounded by the expectation of 'our way' or no way. The ease with which communities coexist in the UK is not as palpable is Sweden, in my opinion, where central insistence on assimilation perceives individuals and communities who distance themselves from Swedish societal norms as an affront to Swedish hospitality.

Working closely with urban immigrant communities in the UK throughout my professional life, I have often been horrified at the ease with which issues of safeguarding or inequality, which may have their roots in the short-comings of integration support in the UK, are occasionally approached through a "well, it's a cultural thing" lense and an inclination to not apply the same rigour of scrutiny or even curiosity from behind the blinkers of 'each to their own'. 'Allowances' are made. This is clearly unsafe.

In comparison, similar issues are less likely to be passed over in Sweden where integration has been felt to be such a baseline requirement for successful participation in society and the capacity of the state to safeguard the individual.

When integration is seen to be lacking, whether as a result of government policy (housing, for instance) or on the part of the individual, it's percieved as an engagement-gap, and culturally, this is incompatible with the Swedish social model.

My experience is that Swedes are, if there is such a thing as a broad brush national trait, political. Not merely party political, but generally fully conversant and engaged in the 'deep' politics of a life lived in a society where so much energy is spent on collectivism and cohesion. Failure to 'buy in' is definitely frowned upon.

This is hard to convey to people who have not experienced it first hand.

Having just lived in Copenhagen for 20 months it's an interesting thing. Society is based a lot on equality and integration and immigrants from wherever are expected to fit in with the Danish/swedish way of doing things. We went to sweden a lot and both are similar in many ways.

The big difference is that a lot of Danes are indeed very much Denmark for the Danes, so whilst you don't see or hear a lot of racism and it's very much frowned upon to be shown - it is there simmering under the surface, especially with older or rural based Danes. We got ripped off on our very large deposit- I don't think a Danexwoukd have been. I was tutted at several times by elderly Danish women for speaking English etc. because they have PR (and this is the disadvantage of PR even though in theory I'm very pro it) and because they have so many centreist parties to vote for as well as left and right- you can get a racist , UKIP type party getting 25% of votes and being the lead party- even though 75% don't remotely agree with them.

Sweden and Denmark are great places to live , much better than UK in my opinion but there is no doubt that all the shitty attitudes are still there- just much better hidden and as an immigrant/expat there you will in my opinion never be fully 'one of them' - Sweden better though on this by quite a margin.

People afraid to embrace change and welcome new ways of looking at life

Exactly. Swedes need to embrace the 500 bombings that have taken place in Sweden's inner cities (including hand grenades) in the past few years. The endless stories of gangland killings. Children caught in the crossfire of thugs engaged in gun fights. The massive increase in the rape statistics. The 60 or so immigrant neighbourhoods which have become no-go areas for the police.

Sheesh, what the hell is wrong with all those racists?

What I'd question though is how they (and the rest of us tbh) got to a place where any kind of feeling for your land, culture, identity, or language, can't be entertained even on the mainstream left?

At the moment even the moderate left seems to want to maintain one of two positions: large amounts of immigration will have no effect on culture or social harmony, or: it doesn't matter if large amounts of immigration cause a significant cultural change and cultural fractioning.

The first is so incredibly naive it's hard to credit. The second enrages people because they see that it's ok for newcomers to be proud of their culture, to value and maintain it, but they are seen as bigots for having similar feelings about their own cultural patrimony and institutions.

And the fact is that cultural fractioning will have significant negative social effects, whatever stories people tell themselves about multicultural diversity.

I think you are definitely on to something here.

It has been common for the left historically to be interested in the idea of a society that transcended the nation state, the revolution has to happen everywhere and there were often strong links between workers parties and organizations internationally. And if we are being honest quite a lot of the time it was the self-appointed intelligensia who were directing things in these parties, but still a strong sense of it being about the regular people and worker.

These parties have maintained this international focus, but it's now explicitly in the service of globalism. This focus on immigration has nothing to do with the "be kind" mantra used to justify it. It's about movement of labour and is meant to compliment a world economy where capital is also completely borderless.

Real people living in real communities may understand and sympathies with the desire people have to migrate for economic opportunity. And some of that can be accommodated and even has great benefits. But that doesn't mean they are willing to give up their sense of local place, or the integrity of their local economy, for the economic benefit of a tiny elite who functionally are not citizens of any particular country, and have no loyalty or ties of soil or affection to any particular place. Nor do they see that kind of attitude as morally superior and they resent people telling them they ought to when it is so clearly self-serving for those who think this way.

Trying to convince people that globalist political elements are really working for the benefit of the poor and workers is just becoming less and less effective. It looks like a con and the leftist parties promoting it seem either dishonest or foolish.

What I'd question though is how they (and the rest of us tbh) got to a place where any kind of feeling for your land, culture, identity, or language, can't be entertained even on the mainstream left?

There's nothing wrong with those things, as long as it isn't blind and doesn't tip over into jingoism, xenophobia, and exceptionalism.

Singing the national anthem is patriotic.
Booing and whistling through the opposition team's anthem is not acceptable.

(in case anyone missed it, last night the German fans at Wembley observed a perfect minutes silence for the Queen, as per usual a section of English fans couldn't manage not to whistle and boo through the German anthem)

(in case anyone missed it, last night the German fans at Wembley observed a perfect minutes silence for the Queen, as per usual a section of English fans couldn't manage not to whistle and boo through the German anthem)

On the flip side...

Up to 100 German hooligans disguised themselves as England fans before storming a pub near Wembley Stadium.
Shocking footage shows unsuspecting punters having a quiet drink at the Green Man in north-west London when the huge group of masked thugs, dressed in black, descended on the beer garden and began assaulting them.
Some of the Germans were wearing England hats and scarves to fit in with the fans getting ready for kick-off last night.

metro.co.uk/2022/09/27/german-hooligans-disguised-as-england-fans-attack-wembley-pub-17455592/

I think it's possible to both overemphasise and underplay what's been happening in Sweden. Clearly this election has been big news, but the political shift has been fairly small. The centre-left parties collectively lost 2 seats (out of 349) and the rightwing parties gained 2 compared to 2018. The only right wing party to actually gain seats are the Sweden Democrats, the other three rightwing parties all lost seats. Nonetheless, this change of 2 seats from the left to the right means a complete shift in government, from a left-wing/social-democratic one to a right-wing one. That's not to say there are no reasons to be concerned. The growth of the Sweden Democrats is disconcerting, but this is not something sudden - it is the longer term trend that worries me more than the specific snapshot in time that the election offered.

And the poster who mentioned the Swedish no go zones - I live next to one such neighbourhood. This supposed no go zone is where I do my food shop, go to the dentist, have an allotment, and visit the swimming pool. The 'no go zone' moniker is nonsense. It's a problem area. There are gang-related issues. There are a large number of residents who are at risk of social and economic marginalisation. However, it's also where people bring up their kids, visit the supermarket and go about their daily lives just like anyone else. By and large it is not the people in Malmö or Gothenburg who live in or near these vulnerable neighbourhoods who are voting for the Sweden Democrats. It is the more agricultural regions where the party is most dominant.