To think a 4 year old can be a bad person

[edenhills]

My friend's child is being bullied in reception. I was discussing this with a group of mum friends and I described the girl as horrible. The group I was with were appalled I would describe a 4 year old like this and said the girl obviously has issues at home or SEN and her behaviour is not her fault at that age. My own daughter was bullied in reception by a boy who locked her in the toilets, pulled her hair, called her names to mention a few things. He has grown up to be an awful 12 year old, no SEN issues. I don't know his full family history but his mum and younger sister seem lovely. I just think some people are horrible and that can include 4 year olds.

By telling someone they are a bad person from a young age too often that will become a self fulfilling prophecy because they believe they are what they have been told they are.

the behaviour may be bad but that doesn’t make the person bad.

@KevinTheKoala i think some mean gentle parenting as in never saying no , having no boundaries etc as that is how some people do gentle parenting, only asking a child to do something
I.e would you like to get dressed today. Child no , parent oh
Rather than we need to get dresses in 5 mins do you want to wear a or b today

I don't know his full family history

No, you don't. No matter how lovely his mother and sister are when you see them. You don't know who or what else has happened or is happening in his life.

I'm sorry but I think a child that young can be a horrible person.

Best friend had a son. Even as a very small child he would break things and just laugh. He thought that goading his parents to snap at each other was the best entertainment and he would laugh helplessly. Friend and her husband were the kindest, calmest parents. Son was just about 3 when he was told he was going to be having a brother or sister. His reaction was, why? Aren't I good enough for you?

When his sister was born he would throw things at her, pour drinks and food over her and she could never be left laying on the floor to have a little kick because he would go and stand on her. Apparently my friends having another child has ruined his chances in life because they will have less money to spend on him (his words). He's only 7 now. His little sister is a total delight even though her brother has to dominate every activity and always has to have more spent on him. I just don't know where this has all come from, he is nothing like as easy going as his parents and sister and my friend always says he must have been switched a birth. I dread him being teenager.

The child that bullied my DS1 all the way through primary school from the age of 4 is still a horrible person at 16.

So yes a 4yo can be a horrible person. In this case the mother thought he was a golden boy no matter how many other parents told her he was a nasty little bully and so he got away with it.

Some kids can behave really badly at the age of 4. We can come up with all kinds of reasons why, but the bottom line is they're badly behaved. And I think it's fair to describe them as such.

My mother taught a five year old in reception class who was a difficult child. Pinched other children, pulled girls’ hair, deliberately broke play equipment, lied . He was ‘quite bright’ not outstanding but not behind in intelligence or learning. The other children were very wary of him.

as they were concerned, they spoke to his parents, who seemed pleasant and concerned. They said that he had been ‘difficult’ from a baby, never settled, didn’t like his elder sister who was prepared to dote on him, unkind to pets . Of course, you never know what goes on behind closed doors but the school had taught the sister and she was a normal and good pupil.

They were expecting a third child that year. When it was three months old, the boy murdered his baby brother by suffocating him with a pillow. He said the baby crying was annoying.

Reading all your answers on both sides, it's very interesting. I'm very surprised that the poll is running at around 50/50 after all my friends thought I was being very unreasonable!

It's the whole nature vs nurture thing isn't it, are violent psychopaths born like that - in which case obviously they are going to be bad from young, or was it down to how they were brought up?

It's a mixture of both I guess, not all psychopaths are dangerous and violent, some are for example incredibly good in sales - they have just enough of an edge of ruthlessness, just enough charm and just enough manipulation. They know which side their bread is buttered on and keep it that way. But from young they had the potential to go another way depending on their upbringing.

So can 4 year olds be horrible and grow up to be horrible still - I'd say yes. To write them off completely though would obviously be very wrong as they might just need nurturing or they might just be responding to trauma that no one else is aware of. Or they might just be immature and have poor social skills or SEN.

But the child in question is being horrible for whatever reason and describing their behaviour as such is not unreasonable. It's not as if you were saying it to the child so you should definitely be allowed to vent.

We have a similar child in my dds class. She lives next door to us and it's really not ideal.

It's a bit extreme to use that sort of language, and comes across as you judging and labelling a child you hardly know based on the account of another four year old.

It was me who mentioned gentle parenting, perhaps I mis-used the term. A PP has it right though, what I meant was he has no boundaries, she doesnt like telling him off, hates it when I or others do (if his behaviour impacts my DC I tell him off). Always has an excuse for his behaviour, downplays what he's done.

Absolutely this.

There was a boy in DS class who was acting really badly. I mean, properly difficult behaviours age 4. In fact we ended up moving DS to another school in year 2 because of this child. But I'd never blame the kid. Oh his mum seemed lovely, so did dad. I'm sure they had nice sides, but I also think they had a lot going on and that this boys home life contributed massively to his behaviour. Not long after DS left the school I met the boys dad at the shop opposite the school. He got out of his car, wobbled over to me, was clearly drunk and admitted to being so (he thought it was funny he'd not fallen asleep on the dual carriageway), then said he was off to pick up his son from school. He was absolutely hammered. Clearly this boys life was not Rosey.

It also really grates on me when people say - "I've met mum and dad and they are so nice, it's clearly that the kid is just bad". Well my mum was a nurse, loved by many, but behind closed doors she was terrifying. You do not know someone just from meeting them a few times, or small snippets

I had one in my nursery class who really frightened me.

He liked to make the other children bleed. He'd sneak up and scratch at any exposed skin or bite very hard, and when he broke skin he'd be delighted. He kept trying to destroy the room - deliberately smashing toys, trying to pull up carpet. Every time we went outdoors he would hunt for insects and try to kill them as painfully as possible.

Of course, I tried calling the parents. His mother told me directly at the first call. "I don't want to hear anything bad about his behavior." Then she disconnected the call. Never answered again. When I finally convinced the manager to insist on a meeting at pickup, she refused to come in until we told her that if we couldn't work out a plan he couldn't come back tomorrow. She then came into the school, immediately put in earphones, and started singing "Just do what you like and don't tell me." Again and again.

I don't know who that child would have been in a better home. But I certainly understood him much better when seeing what he was up against.

I would just like to add, I would never say to a child that they were bad or horrible. I wouldn't say this about a child with other children in earshot either.

Small children are people. All people have different personalities. Some children, just like some adults, are definitely more intrinsically prone to spiteful or irritating behaviour than others, regardless of upbringing. Nature definitely plays a role in personality - that's not to say that nurture isn't always a factor, but I can think of two sets of twins in my acquaintance where one is fundamentally a nicer person than the other, going back to childhood. I also think it's naive (and insulting to children with SEN) to immediately say 'Well they probably have SEN' about a child who is behaving obnoxiously.

That doesn't mean it's necessarily accurate to describe them as 'horrible'. But some children do have personality traits that are less likeable.

Also, even if it were not possible for a child to be 'horrible', I think people are being incredibly sanctimonious and pearl-clutchy to get annoyed about the description when it wasn't being used in the presence of the child, the child's parents or any other children and is therefore having no negative impact on them whatsoever.

How about saying the child is 'horribly behaved'? The child may not be horrible but their behaviour certainly is.

I’ve heard it said that genetics load the gun, environment pulls the trigger. I believe some children can be born with a propensity towards sadism and/or sociopathy, but whether they go on to manage these traits and be considered successful in society is largely dependent on environment.

Children can’t understand right from wrong, but they do know what is enjoyable and what isn’t. Unfortunately, you will find ones that enjoy inflicting pain and are resistant to any sort of lesson against that, even beyond the point where they understand what is and isn’t acceptable. And this can occur no matter how ‘good’ the family, and no matter the professional treatments.

it’s a difficult one. I do think that yes, some children are just ‘born bad’ and will remain so, but others can display the same behaviors and yet be helped to grow into ‘normal’ people. At the age it presents though, there’s no way of predicting the outcome, so it needs to be treated rather than the individual written off.

To those who say a 4yr old can't be bad, how would you describe a 4yr old diagnosed as a Sociopath or Psychopath, can that be called bad?

Second question is, what is the threshold for labelling someone as bad, is it 18yrs when they become an adult?

Also, sociopath lacks empathy, but that isn’t to say they enjoy inflicting pain. Someone who is ‘just’ a sociopath won’t gain pleasure from causing pain, they’ll just have no problem doing it if it helps them achieve their aim. The actual pain they’ve caused they’ll be indifferent to.

People with a propensity towards sadistic personality disorder however, DO enjoy inflicting pain. That requires empathy.

they are distinct conditions:
healthland.time.com/2012/05/14/understanding-the-psychopathic-mind/

Yes, they can be bad. We're reluctant to admit, but children can be evil from young ages.

If you are interested in this topic read Lionel Shriver “We Need To Talk About Kevin”. The main character has a son who is evil from birth. Not an easy read but very thought provoking

I think you can spot some wrong’uns from very young but with a lot of targeted support they can be turned around.

My ‘D’B was obviously troubled from at least 3 (I’m 18 months) older. He was violent and spiteful. Wasn’t parented any differently from me. Parents buried their head in the sand and said he’d grow out of it. Of course he didn’t and buy the time he was 13 it was too late. They didn’t want to involve outside help as they didn’t want him to come to the attention of authorities. By the time he was 16, 6ft, smashing up the house and threatening them there was no hope of redemption. He’s now in his 40s and still lives at home smoking weed in his bedroom.

So long story short, I do believe a 4 year old (without SEN) can be ‘bad’ but if you intervene, you can turn them around.

Not the case. I had one 4 year old in my class who was evil. His parents were lovely but beside themselves with his behaviour. He could not be left alone with his baby sister or the dog, he had put a pillow over the baby's face, he was caught with a knife beside her and told his Dad he would kill her. I won't even tell you what he done to the poor dog. That child was dangerous, menace radiated from him and every child in the class refused to sit near him, nobody would play near him. I wouldn't be surprised to hear he has harmed someone one day.

I wouldn’t necessarily call psychopaths ‘bad’ whatever their age.

there are a few careers overrepresented by psychopaths, and one is medicine. A surgeon that goes to work everyday and saves lives may be a psychopath. Some are. Law is another one, so the cut throat solicitor that represented you in court and won may also be a psychopath.

the problem is that psychopathy is recognized to exist, but it’s lumped in with ASPD when again they’re different conditions. Also, most of what we know about psychopathy comes from studies on prisoners. The problem with this is that the majority of psychopaths aren’t criminals.