To think a 4 year old can be a bad person

[edenhills]

My friend's child is being bullied in reception. I was discussing this with a group of mum friends and I described the girl as horrible. The group I was with were appalled I would describe a 4 year old like this and said the girl obviously has issues at home or SEN and her behaviour is not her fault at that age. My own daughter was bullied in reception by a boy who locked her in the toilets, pulled her hair, called her names to mention a few things. He has grown up to be an awful 12 year old, no SEN issues. I don't know his full family history but his mum and younger sister seem lovely. I just think some people are horrible and that can include 4 year olds.

I would say a 4 year old could act horribly and display 'bad' behaviour but I wouldn't say the child herself was bad or horrible.

4 is so young! No child is ‘bad’ they are a product of their environment. This says more about how they are being treated at home. Maybe there could also be a SEN inside. You are being unreasonable labelling a young child in this way.

SEN issue I should have said. Agree with @Suedomin they can behave badly but they aren’t bad themselves.

A lot of 4 year olds can behave really badly but then grow up to be perfectly lovely adults. However you can tell pretty young with some people that they are just assholes. The kids who got a real kid out of cruelty at school never changed. They changed how they did it but they continued to enjoy and cause other peoples misery.

YANBU I agree with you. I think some children can be bad. DH's nephew is 8 and has been throughly unpleasant for most of his life. I dread his teen years and will ensure my DS's spend as little time with him as possible.

He is a child of divorce, his father is useless and SIL is one of those 'gentle parents - I couldnt possibly tell him no' who tells him he is the centre of the universe. I accept his childhood is a large part of why he is the way he is but he is just so horrible and seems a deeply engrained personality which isn't improving with age.

I'm sure a lot of people will hate my post but it is genuinely howI feel.

You sound like a horrible person tbh

Almost certainly their parents are bad. But little people can still do or say horrible things. Sometimes they seem psychopathic because they have no sense of social norms and are so selfish. I believe it's a developmental stage.

My cousin at four (to be fair he was almost five) had a well adjusted loving family, a stable upbringing and siblings who were very nice people.

He however would quite gleefully delight in hurting people on purpose in small ways that he thought could get away with - 'accidentally' pull your hair, scratch you or 'fall' and bite you. He would lie, shamelessly and would steal prolifically without a modicum of guilt.

He had the forethought to happily wait for adults to be out the room and cause pain to small animals or other small children. He would get such a look of weird satisfaction on his face while he did it.

His behavior only came to light after the family dog suffered a spate of unexplained injuries and nearly lost an eye. Even then it was almost chalked up to rambunctious behavior until he was caught in the act of hurting another child that couldn't be explained away. (Me)

Despite care and help being provided - He, throughout his life, deliberately sought out violence, aggression and antisocial behaviour.

Arguably all 4 year olds are "bad" by adult standards, as they haven't yet learned empathy. There are definitely times both my children would've murdered me as toddlers if they'd been strong enough and had access to knives (I used to laugh when they thumped away with their little fists, but only because they were so powerless). They're lovely human beings now they're older. Yes, some kids are born with more tendencies to psychopathy/sociopathy than others, but no child is fully formed at 4 (and even psychopaths given the right upbringing can be "good" people who choose to do the right thing on an intellectual rather than empathic level)

Young kids are just “noob” humans programmed by their parents behaviour and genes. You can’t really expect self-awareness from them at that age.

I don't think it's ever going to be a good thing to put that label on any individual 4 year old but I do think that inherently bad people do exist. You don't know if a 4 year old is one of them or one who will grow out of it or has the potential to be taught better so they should all get the benefit of the doubt at such a young age.

Agree with those saying you are placing adult expectations on a child who won’t have the same control or awareness we do. That’s really quite unfair. All kids do ‘bad’ things at points, it’s part of learning, testing boundaries and also often we just see it as bad when actually it’s a normal part or their development. I’m really quite shocked by the post agreeing with this concept of a child being bad.

I had a friend whose dd had a real mean streak to the point she'd make adults feel uncomfortable to be around her. I finally said something when she was caught taking another friend's SN dd to a quiet room to bully her, despite being caught sat on her with a fistful of hair in her hand and her other hand over her mouth whilst she reeled off insults her mum still wouldn't have it so they were firmly invited to leave.

In fairness to the dad he did try to work on her behaviour and the last I'd heard wanted to try private therapy to get her some help but her mum over ruled him at every turn. She'll be an adult now and I just hope they stepped up or someone stepped in because some of the things she did just weren't normal for a child that age.

I’m afraid I think YANBU, and I’m definitely not one who thinks all small children are angels. But a 4 year old isn’t a horrible person, they are behaving horribly. There is a difference. It’s not totally impossible they’re a psychopath which means they literally cannot feel empathy but this is profoundly unlikely, at the age of 4 it’s most probably they just aren’t behaving as well as the other children their age.

However I do agree with you that this bad behaviour isn’t always down to SEN, bad parenting, or issues at home, some children just have more or less compliant characters, learn empathy at older ages, or resist authority more. I for one was a very difficult child until I was about 5, compared to my siblings, I don’t think it was my parents fault.

Interesting thread.

My 5 year has just gone in to year 1. Her Reception year was blighted by a girl in her class who I would describe as a bully in the making. She tells the other girls who they’re allowed to play with and often isolates one girl at a time so she has no one to play with. Her ‘accidents’ include throwing sand in a girls mouth, stamping 3 times in a row on a girls arm, hitting a ball directly in to a girls face from about a metre away, blocking a girl from going to the toilet. Then there’s the threats of telling the teacher if they don’t do what she wants/says. And of course at that age they’re scared to be told off by the teacher.

She is really unpleasant. The school are trying to play it down but the parents have started talking and realised their child isn’t the only one on the receiving end.

The behaviour can be horrible rather than the child

Yes it's when those words spirited and headstrong and strong personality are used to describe a child/excuse their behaviour

No, they're behaving like an arsehole...wish some parents would just own it!

No I don’t think 4 year olds can be ‘bad’.

They can be hurtful and harmful - which needs teaching, patience and also positive words. Negative breeds negative in my view.

Good job I don’t think 4 year olds are somehow inherently bad since I work with many! They need to know I see them as good and I call them to live up to that ‘good’ within when they mess up.

100%. It is cruel to call a 4 year old 'horrible'. Badly behaved yes maybe but absolutely no one is inherently bad. That's not to say the child shouldn't be picked up on their behaviour. They should be.

Dnephew has exhibited bad behaviour since he

I completely disagree and don't wonder why your friends reacted as they did.
What is your definition of bad anyway? I don't find it easy to define. A person who intentionally hurts others, either physically or mentally? A person who steals? A person who has lived an impeccable life but through no fault of their own ends up in a bad situation and end up killing someone? A person who works for a company who has questionable dealings?
Some people would say another parent was "bad" for not inviting the who class to a birthday party or a child was "bad" because they wouldn't share their toy!
We all have our own moral compass, and while everyone notices when someone does something that seems off, to label a child means that your thinking is incredibly black and white.

But did you never look a child in your child's class or friendship group and think - "that kid is awful!"

Yes, but usually you don't have to look much further than the parents. At 4, it's generally to do with unmet needs.

Also, acting out and flexing their power. At 4, they're just beginning to learn about social structures and social hierarchies, but they still don't have much impulse control and or the emotional understanding to be kind and considerate towards each other.

People say it all the time in real life about kids
Most kids can be horrible at some time or not behave well though, because they are still learning and testing boundaries
Everyone is quick to blame sen as well as though all kids who have sen are badly behaved which is simply not true
At 4 I would be judging how parents reacted to behaviour though as opposed to the child as thats who they learn from
I would never say to a child they are horrible etc but def most people I know have commented at sometime or other that xxx is not a nice child or misbehaves etc

It is very rare that a child that young is truly 'horrible' and the vast majority of the time it is down to their upbringing/situations around them that they have no control over. 4 year olds don't have the emotional intelligence to properly express their emotions - to be honest, some adults aren't even capable of that all the time. That doesn't meant that there shouldn't be consequences for bad behaviour, or that that they can't behave horribly but to label the child themselves as horrible is a bit harsh. They might grow up to be an amazing person.

Theres a couple of comments on this thread that make no sense to me. My understanding of gentle parenting is basically a parent who doesn't use physical/verbal aggression to discipline? I think now the majority of parents probably try to follow 'gentle parenting' they just don't label it as such. You can be an effective parent while still being gentle. And also, a lot of children (not just daughters) are headstrong and spirited - I describe my own child as such - that doesn't mean she's allowed to get away with anything, or that those things excuse poor behaviour? It just means that she's harder to parent than her more easy going, laid back sister. She still has consequences, she's still a kind and empathetic child who wouldn't hurt a fly - she's just given me a few more grey hairs than I'd like.

I don't think you were wrong to describe him as horrible. He was horrible. Does not mean you think he is entirely responsible at the age of 4 for being like he is.

And I do think horrivble behaviuour at this age should be taken more seriously than it currently is. Putting it down to 'oh he can't help it' 'he has a rough time at home' 'he is just spirited'. If they are horrible it needs addressing, whatever the cause for the behaviour.

And i'm sorry but some kids are simply horrible. Perhaps an unfortunate combination of homelife and genetics, who knows. I remember as a child a boy in my class was just that. I remember thinking as a child he was just pure evil, some of the stuff he did to other children. Seemed to have a nice house, family and siblings who were certainly not horrible, but as a kid myself, who knows.

At age 7 he deliberately killed his neighbours puppy. A fucking puppy for gods sake. We know this because the neighbour was also a child in our class and her father had caught him doing it.

He later went on to murder his girlfriend when he was 17.

Since this, I do unfortunately believe there is a minority of people who are just simply born evil.

Not saying this child is anywhere near this extreme. But not being allowed to say he is horrible, when he clearly is being, is just nuts.