Emergency Budget

[Wouldloveanother]

What are we all thinking?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62920969

A discussion thread…

That would be pretty much everyone who bought a house before about 2010 and it covers at least two generations. So what you’re actually saying is means test pensions which is a completely different approach to the one Rainingrubies suggested.

No I’m not saying that at all.

I’m saying people who have seen their property double in price have a pension right there.

You seem utterly averse to pensioners paying for anything, yet absolutely oblivious to the hardship working families are in.

You do realise that not every pensioner owns a house? How would it work?

The middle class will pay for it.

Why ? Because they are the only ones with any cash. Poor people don't have any money, so no point taxing them. Rich people avoid paying taxes by employing armies of accounts, because it is cheaper to pay an army of accountants than paying tax.

That leaves the middle class. People earning maybe 50-200k pa with a few tens to hundreds of thousands of savings. They are going to get rinsed.

What the government should do :

Reduce house prices so young people can get a home.

Tax private pensions to remove the 40% benefit and more.

Make it compulsary and unavoidable to pay inheritance tax, remove the current exemptions/bans and increase the amount apid.

Make it compulsary and unavoidable to pay for your own social care.

Invest in energy transition.

What the government has done/will do :

Run up more debt.

What will happen :

The middle class will get rinsed in the long term to pay for the debt the government will run up in the short term.

If they stop our pensions can we have a proportion of our NI back? Bad faith not to. They calculate your pension on what you paid so no pension and we should get our contributions back. Not really fair to pay towards a pension for 45 years and then not get it.

I'm sure a team of actuaries can work it out, obviously it would have to have interest added. Should be a nice sum.

75% of over 65s own their house outright.

Thats not including people who have nearly paid their mortgages off or haven’t but have significant equity in their houses.

If this demographic can’t afford it, who can?

That’s precisely what you’re saying.

So where do you propose people whose pension allegedly is their house live if they sell it to live on the proceeds? Who’s going to buy all those houses? If they all go on the market at once their value drops. How are they going to be compensated for all the NI contributions they’ve made?

I think pensioners should absolutely pay their share and they do. As I said, anyone who pays around £9k tax a year repays all their pension. I get the impression that until everyone of pension age is living in a hovel and completely destitute you won’t be happy.

The value might drop but not by any significant amount. They’ll still make an enormous profit on it. We need to encourage people to move into retirement flats and smaller, more manageable properties when they retire. This will also solve the huge and costly problem of the NHS picking up the tab of elderly people falling around in their unsuitable two-storey houses and being in and out of hospital like a revolving door. It will free up housing stock for younger people, make houses more affordable and rebalance things.

As for NI, I’m not kidding myself I’ll see anything of mine when I’m elderly. As PPs have said pensions will be a thing of the past. Life isn’t fair is it?

We need to encourage people to move into retirement flats and smaller, more manageable properties when they retire

I agree. Trouble is there are so few of them. And the good ones, on the rare occasion they come to the market, cost as much as a three bed semi. I’d love to live in a bungalow but there just aren’t any where I live. Builders don’t build them because they use more land and so they’re not profitable.

It will free up housing stock for younger people, make houses more affordable and rebalance things

How would that work when you say values wouldn’t drop by any significant amount? You really can’t have it both ways.

The vast majority of elderly people I know don’t live in retirement properties, not because of a lack of supply but because they believe it is their inherent right to stay in their family home and the state should pick up the tab for any accidents or help they need to live there. It seems to be a pride thing, they’re very averse to change.

But it is their inherent right to live in the home they paid for! Why buy a house in the first place if you have no right to live in it? How is the state picking up the tab? People have accidents wherever they live. And at any age.

The people I know don't move into retirement properties because of the rip off fees and the fact they are so hard to sell and often lose value.

Do you really think at 67 people suddenly become unable to live in a house? How ridiculous. I'm 69, I have a job, I'm bringing up a teenager, who couldn't live with me in a retirement property, I'm caring for my disabled husband. Incidentally he became disabled in his 40s not his 60s. Do you think the state has any less responsibility for his care now than they did 35 years ago? If so why?

This thread seems entirely based on the pretence that it's working age adults V pensioners.

Why ignore the mismanagement of the housing market, the failure to invest in infrastructure, education, more doctors, better support & early intervention for social care? Why ignore the failure to rethink childcare?

Who do you think is in charge here? Mabel down the road or (currently) the Conservative party?

I guess making villains of pensioners makes a change from benefit claimants. But it's equally lazy thinking.

We need to encourage people to move into retirement flats and smaller, more manageable properties when they retire

There a retirement flat for sale near me that has a service charge of £2,500 pa. There’s also another block, where it’s impossible to sell them, as people don’t want to pay the service charge.

As for smaller properties. They’re mainly tiny terraces near me with no oaraking.

@Notonthestairs

Who do you think puts the Tories in charge ?

Clue : Mabel down the road has got something to do with it.

It's not just Mabel though is it? Are you suggesting working people do not vote Conservative?

Well I didn't, my DH didn't, my siblings didn't, their partners didn't. So maybe Mabel didn't either.

www.theguardian.com/business/2021/apr/24/old-get-the-benefits-tories-the-election-wins

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/10/31/2019-general-election-demographics-dividing-britain

58% of the over 70's vote Tory, 9% Labour.

16% of the under 24's vote Tory, 38% vote Labour.

So yes, Mabel down the road is far more likely to be a Tory than a Labour voter.

YouGov found that the point at which voters flip from Non Conservative voter to Conservative has lowered from 47 to 39 (at the last election).

You simply can't pin the Conservative success wholly on pensioners.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/17/how-britain-voted-2019-general-election

Because you appear to be a complete morality vacuum. You have no sympathy for the many pensioners who have not benefited from the rising property prices because they've never owned a home, or those who haven't worked all their lives because of societal pressures, disabilities, or any other reason.

You don't care about the free will of other people - you only see how you could benefit if they were forced out of their homes into (non-existent) retirement properties.

You have no consideration for those who have worked hard all their lives and struggled to make ends meet or pay into large pension funds because they're poorly paid, on zero hours contracts or are disadvantaged in other ways, even though these low paid jobs are often essential to society. You only care about how much you are paying out.

I'm not in any of the demographics above, fwiw - but I can see how people end up failing to make provisions for their old age through no fault of their own, and I have sympathy for these people. Protecting those who cannot help themselves is what the state and taxation is for, and it's a privilege to live in a country which values that, and to pay into that system. Those who can afford to pay higher rate tax should be glad to do so.

I would actually be very interested to know how many votes are cast across different age ranges - ie are you more or less likely to vote aged 25/35/45 etc and how that reflects population numbers. (Not sure I've phrased that well but hopefully you get my drift)

If younger people aren't voting their interests are not going to be reflected.

You shouldn't assume that, it is nowhere near 100% is it.

75% of people over 65 own their houses outright.

Thats not even taking into account the people over 65 who have nearly paid off their mortgage or have huge amounts of equity in their property.

You have no consideration for those who have worked hard all their lives and struggled to make ends meet

Well, they have no consideration for us - they’ve voted in Tory government after Tory government, knowing how they will force working families into poverty and decimate public services, to save themselves a few quid.

If they want understanding, it has to be reciprocated. It isn’t.

Because OP really, really hates older people. Unfortunately the post where she was explicit about that was deleted.

I don’t hate elderly people whatsoever. I can’t say they don’t frustrate me as a WHOLE, because they are primarily responsible for Brexit and 12 years of Tory rule which has devastated the country. How else am I supposed to feel? But on an individual level I don’t dislike elderly people at all.