To say depression is not a weakness

[tamalams]

A friend of mine and I were having a debate about mental health. I've never suffered personally apart from one episode when I nearly lost my son 15 years ago to an illness when he was a few days old - I received prompt treatment to the eyes (how mad!) and all was treated and dealt with.

My friend said that mental health issues are a sign of weakness in that persons brain. It's a topic that's a bit close to home after what happened as I don't feel I was weak.

But she made some points that I couldn't argue (maybe because I'm weak ha!) but they were points like counselling makes you stronger therefore you must be weak in the first place.

I tried saying no counselling gives you the tools to handle a situation and she just kept coming back with "isn't that just another way to say you're stronger"... Said I was bowing to the woke brigade and trying to be PC which I really am not.

But because it may be an issue that's close to home maybe I was a little sensitive about it maybe?

I don't know why you're hanging out with her
.. she sounds like c*nt, and a dumb one at that.

If actually theorise that depression is probably even more common among intelligent & intellectual deep thinkers.... That's probably why your friend has never suffered from it and why her chances of suffering from it are relatively low.

🙄

Agree with this, having had long experience with this illness. So Churchill, Abraham Lincoln, Charles Dickens, the Duchess of Kent, etc are all weak are they?

Your friend’s opinions show a marked weakness when it comes to awareness and emotional intelligence.

*That sort of stigma means some people don't want to seek help because they are ''ashamed'' and that people with mental health issues are still discriminated in the workplace.

Frankly we seriously need to move on from that kind of nonsense...*

I would say she is stigmatising but then almost everyone does who uses labels as they are categorising someone's behaviour and emotions as abnormal/disordered and stigma is what the whole mental health field was built on and survives on. Without stigma we would have no labels. To give mental health labels is to stigmatise.

Anyone coping with depression or anxiety everyday have huge strengths.

Technically it is a weakness in that it’s something that effects your ability to function and be rational, in the same way of any other illness though so it’s one of those ‘no need to say it’ things! There’s depression in my husband’s family and it is something that debilitates but … I don’t know, weakness is a silly word really!!!

This is simplistic antipsych talk. Go far enough with this idea, and you say goodbye to timely, evidence-based treatment that works for people suffering extreme disturbances in mood, perception and cognition.

How much time have you spent with people not receiving treatment for active cases of what we currently refer to as schizophrenia, mania, catatonic depression, psychotic depression, severe OCD, etc.? People with these problems are very obviously experiencing something "abnormal" or "disordered". The categories arise because there is a need for them, the way there is a need for categories in every sphere of life. Without some kind of way to organise symptoms and presentations, there's no way for anyone to work out what kind of treatments help what kind of problems.

To say that "to give mental health labels is to stigmatise" is to throw up your hands in the face of mental health stigma and give up on people suffering terrible pain. Sure, there are probably better ways to categorise problems and organise symptoms, that's why it's a constantly changing and evolving field. We should keep doing that, and keep working on stigma, not just hope that by getting rid of categories people would suddenly stop stigmatising the people suffering what we currently call mental illness (hint: that's not what would happen, people would still laugh at and despise and exclude the mad, just as they did before psychiatric diagnoses were invented).

Getting rid of categories altogether just dumps us all back in a supercategory of inconvenient people, no ideas on what can be done to help because nobody can do sensible tests or choose from a range of things known to help people with similar problems; no reason to offer assistance in living because we have no disorder or illness so we should be able to manage like everyone else, no way for people with difficulties to easily identify others with similar difficulties to get mutual support…

In short, no.

Damn, I missed something I wanted to be more explicit about. "Without stigma we would have no labels" is nonsense. People categorise everything to try to improve their understanding. It's how humans work on a fairly basic level. Every type of thing that can go wrong with your car has a name. There are names for every sort of fuck-up that can happen when you bake a cake. There's names for all the different possible disorders of the human wrist. Even if there had never been any stigma around the things that can cause extreme changes in the way humans think, feel and behave, there would still be names for those things.

In short, no. And this is why stigma continues. The people who created the labels admitted they are made up with no biological markers. It is not an evolving field it is the only field where there has been no progression in 100 years.

People categorise everything to try to improve their understanding. It's how humans work on a fairly basic level. Every type of thing that can go wrong with your car has a name. That is if you see mental health as something wrong with someone, I don't I see it as a normal reaction to something abnormal and that makes perfect sense. Do you give a mental health label to a deer who is scared of a fox or do you say it is just normal reaction to something that has almost cost them their life before?

(hint: that's not what would happen, people would still laugh at and despise and exclude the mad, just as they did before psychiatric diagnoses were invented).
But by labelling them this is exactly what people are still doing.

Oh God, the biological markers argument. Yes, if there's no blood test it isn't real 🙄

If a deer was frequently reacting as though there was a fox present even when there wasn't, even when all the other deer were happily getting on with the business of eating, and it meant that that deer was struggling to find enough time to feed itself and suffering other negative consequences of its inability to assess the situation the same way other deer do — if this was a thing which occasionally happened to particular deer — then yes, there would probably be a name for that condition.

Well given the creators admitted there were none that is pretty much seals the argument doesn't it? No it wouldn't at all people understand animal reactions just not humans because they are conditioned to use stigma and label people as abnormal instead. I'd say fearing for your life is pretty normal if something happened to you. Pretty rational to be scared. It's a shame that people expect things to disappear once the danger has gone and really don't understand responses at all.

I don't feel laughed at, despised or excluded by being labelled with the term "bipolar disorder". It's a label applied by a doctor who used it to decide to give me treatment that has helped other people who had difficulties that get described that way. That medication means I am no longer publicly mad on a regular basis, and no longer sporadically suffering extreme mental pain. I don't even need to tell people I have that label if I don't want to, because there's no longer any craziness to explain. When I do tell people, nobody reacts badly.

Just how was my doctor laughing at me, despising me or excluding me by telling me that over the years, doctors have met many people with the same difficulties I have, and have chosen to use that label for us so that they can determine the best treatments?

Well you believe what you want but I don't believe it exists. Those who gave that label admitted so themselves it is made up. Your very words show the stigma that keeps the oppression running.

Look, if you have problems seen in PTSD or cPTSD, or possibly the problems often known as BPD/EUPD, I understand your argument. Really. With respect to you personally. And ACEs do also affect likelihood of lots of other kinds of mental illnesses. But not all mental health problems can be simplified down to an understandable reaction to events or a deer jumping at a fucking fox, and nor should they be. That understanding is shallow and one-dimensional; there are many factors involved and frankly we would be arrogant to claim we understand even a fraction of them.

ACEs are debunked also. The creator has said they were never to be used as a score for individuals and giving a score is damaging. They have asked for people not to use them as the damage they cause is a real issue.

Your argument style is to latch on to specific things (in this case ACEs), attempt to discredit me by claiming I said something about them I never said (with ACEs, implying that I said anything about individual vs. population utility, which I didn't), and bring up whole new topics of discussion (like biomarkers) to try to derail the topic into your antipsych propaganda.

What I took issue with and continue to take issue with is your statement that in this specific area of human experience, "Without stigma we would have no labels. To give mental health labels is to stigmatise." This does not hold true in any other area. It's circular. It's illogical. It's unproven.

And you are arguing in bad faith using bad faith tactics. Goodnight.

No I'm responding to what you said and that ACEs have been withdrawn a few years ago due to the damage it was causing labelling people. Same thing. Different labels.
You say unproven as is the case with your own labels. Well admitted that they were made up so more proof they are just down to what they've always been down to. Stigma and control.

I had PTSD and they treated me with a treatment called EMDR which means you talk through what happened while moving your eyes to a device as if you're dreaming. On the NHS and it saved my life

I received a treatment called EMDR in response to PTSD after nearly losing my son at 10 days old. You talk through the event while your eyes follows this device to mimic dreaming. It was on the NHS and it was amazing. Never heard of anything like it before and this was almost 15 years ago. Total life saver.

This is really interesting. That it's rational to be scared.

Is it subjective? Eg could you argue that to react to trauma is rational but someone who doesn't react so negatively to trauma lacks the full understanding of that trauma?

I'm not saying it is, but it's an interesting way to look at it. Or is it purely biological eg a weaker brain won't cope with trauma?

I'd didnt realise Aces were out. I found the research really helpful to understand why I was struggling so much now ( lots of aces) and also in terms of teaching risk factors.

As for "normal reaction." Something I've found helpful was that J learnt coping strategies to cope with an abusive childhood. Which were great and protected me! But now they're not needed so it's unlearning those.

The friend is an idiot.

Does she insult people with physical health problems, or is her discrimination saved up solely for those with mental health problems?

What is weak is her character.

And genuinely pleased (and impressed) that you got prompt treatment . Unfortunately I'm not sure that's so often the case now. I ended up in intensive care after giving birth which left me with a ton of birth trauma and looking back I also wasn't functioning normally around my baby. I was hypervigilant on overdrive, intrusive thoughts etc. I had some hv visits and some baby massage but didn't get "prompt treatment" that would have really helped. It took until about the 5th birthday before I could enjoy their birthday without reliving the birth.

I've finally received trauma based therapy for childhood abuse. Through a charity and it was year long. That was life changing. At 40. So many times I'd been given a 6week nhs block that didn't do anything. I really think prompt treatment and better mh treatment would make so much difference.

(Slight apologies for the mh provision rant!.)