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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

I don't want to be 'reigned over' anymore - Part 2

67 replies

vera99 · 14/09/2022 09:31

As a continuation of the thread started by @Yubgftr for a robust discussion as to the suitability or not to have a constitutional monarchy.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4631621-i-dont-want-to-be-reigned-over-anymore?page=40&reply=119985613

Even a new national anthem - why is it all about the king or queen and god saving them? Why not about the people, the nation as a whole?
That said, I also hate the idea of someone like Boris Johnson being head of state and I bet that's a role he'd go for if we were a Republic. Swings and Roundabouts!
YABU - God save the king, monarchy forever
YANBU - time to end the monarchy

OP posts:
vera99 · 14/09/2022 11:30

One of the richest families in the world - fantastic benefit of tax-free privileges available to no other citizens.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/14/the-sovereigns-wealth-uk-royal-familys-finances-explained?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

OP posts:
TitInATrance · 14/09/2022 11:35

Legrandsophie · 14/09/2022 09:44

Another fact free diatribe I see.

Why not try reading our constitution rather than culling bilge from social media and newspapers?

We don’t have a constitution in the U K.

greenhousegal · 14/09/2022 11:38

TitInATrance · 14/09/2022 11:35

We don’t have a constitution in the U K.

We do, it is unwritten though, and based a lot on precedent and other tangled references.

AuxArmesCitoyens · 14/09/2022 11:49

We don't have a constitution you can read.

Legrandsophie · 14/09/2022 11:53

Yes, we do. There is a book. Buy it.

User135644 · 14/09/2022 11:53

I don't like or care for the royal family but don't care about abolishing it. Is democracy all it's cracked up to be anyway when we're alwsys governed by Tories and a wretched Westminster? Who wants President Boris anyway.

In a way the monarchy is all we've got left after Brexit.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 14/09/2022 11:55

Legrandsophie · 14/09/2022 09:44

Another fact free diatribe I see.

Why not try reading our constitution rather than culling bilge from social media and newspapers?

Have you 'read' the constitution?

Which document have you read? Which aspects are of particular interest to you, and best support your desire for its continuation?

Legrandsophie · 14/09/2022 11:56

In fact there are many, many books on the U.K. constitution and hundreds of documents.

What there is not us a Ten Commandments style list so loved in the US- except when it is getting in the way of most political reforms.

Read some Bagshott and get back to me.

Legrandsophie · 14/09/2022 11:57

The English Constitution by Bagshott is still relevant (very little has changed except for fixed term parliaments)

Does anyone here know anything about the different estates of government?

ocs30 · 14/09/2022 12:02

Legrandsophie · 14/09/2022 11:53

Yes, we do. There is a book. Buy it.

Is it this? 😂

I don't want to be 'reigned over' anymore  - Part 2
felulageller · 14/09/2022 12:03

If Charlie wants to save the monarchy he needs to pay inheritance tax on the private wealth he's inherited from the queen, strip everyone bar him, his DW, DC and DGCs of HRHs, have a low key coronation and donate excess castles, jewellery, art, cars, etc to charity.

They need to follow the lead of all the other surviving monarchies and live more typical lives.

vera99 · 14/09/2022 12:06

It's Bagehot for the record Bagshott is where Prince Edward and his family live. Anyway, I'm off to Central London with my partner to observe at firsthand the people and see what Bagehot's 'lower orders' are up to.

England had a ‘double set’ of institutions – the dignified ones ‘impress the many’ while the efficient ones ‘govern the many’. The dignified or ‘theatrical’ parts of the system played the essential role of winning and sustaining the loyalty and confidence of the mass of ordinary people whose political capacities were minimal or non-existent; they helped the state to gain authority and legitimacy, which the efficient institutions could then use.

Bagehot was an unashamed elitist who believed bleakly that the ‘lower orders’ and the ‘middle orders’ were ‘narrow-minded, unintelligent, incurious’. Throughout The English Constitution, there are references to ‘the coarse, dull, contracted multitude’, ‘the poor and stupid’, ‘the vacant many’, ‘the clownish mass’.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_English_Constitution

OP posts:
Legrandsophie · 14/09/2022 12:11

@vera99

10 out of 10 for being able to work Wikipedia.

Wallaw · 14/09/2022 12:14

User135644 · 14/09/2022 11:53

I don't like or care for the royal family but don't care about abolishing it. Is democracy all it's cracked up to be anyway when we're alwsys governed by Tories and a wretched Westminster? Who wants President Boris anyway.

In a way the monarchy is all we've got left after Brexit.

@User135644

As an American, resident in the UK for many years, I've heard this said many times, and I'm embarrassed to admit that I've never really understood this argument.

How is a PM substantively all that different from a president? They're both voted in and out, in the US, it's 8 years max (despite what the orange criminal might want), and Blair, for example, was PM for 10.

And I know they could, but would any modern monarch truly refuse to allow a government to be formed? Surely that would be the end of the monarchy? And if we elect horrors who are willing to prorogue Parliament and lie to the monarch and there's no blowback, what difference does it all really make?

Honestly not being argumentative, just looking to understand.

vera99 · 14/09/2022 12:15

Thanks but your spelling mistake was a shocker for someone so well informed. 😀

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Daftasabroom · 14/09/2022 12:20

vera99 · 14/09/2022 09:53

Well on the last thread with over 2500 votes the abolishers won by a small majority 52% to 48% so that's a lot of people leaving the country by the logic if you don't like it leave.

King Charles starts from a high point, issuing redundancy notices to his staff during the morning period is not a good start.

www.itv.com/news/2022-06-01/poll-dramatic-decline-in-support-for-monarchy-in-decade-since-diamond-jubilee

Have we learned nothing from the debacle of Brexit? Voting to abolish something without having a very clear plan of what to replace it with is a recipe for disaster.

vera99 · 14/09/2022 12:23

@felulageller agreed like Liz Truss he needs to hit the ground running with a vast swathe of reforms and use the goodwill he has obviously and rightly inherited. The late Queen got a free pass for her longevity, service and good humour she brought with almost never a crack in that noble facade. That Charles will never equal or surpass that is a given and should give monarchists a pause for thought. Just telling us to eff on and leave the country does the exact opposite.

Republicans apparently have a majority in Scotland.

OP posts:
LakieLady · 14/09/2022 12:23

Novella4 · 14/09/2022 09:41

Thank you for new thread

I have just mentioned on another thread that in Robert Preston's Twitter he's pointing out that Andrew is a councillor of state and therefore stands in if Charles is out of the country or incapacitated.

The royalists are frothing ' it's protocol , it's nonsense '

The fact is it will take an act of parliament to remove him
This is why the royals need removed
Ludicrous

I think this is the first step of the RF's efforts to rehabilitate the (alleged) sex criminal.

Novella4 · 14/09/2022 12:30

@LakieLady
Another poster says there is a bill underway to remove him from line of succession

The point being , we shouldn't be in this position in the 21st century

The other thing I wonder about is Andrew may not be the only issue

countrygirl99 · 14/09/2022 12:31

I studied Bagehot as part of the British Government module at university. Got a 1st in that module too.Am I allowed to have an opinion?

AuxArmesCitoyens · 14/09/2022 12:34

I wondered who Bagshott was but am too polite to say so 😇

Stopandlook · 14/09/2022 12:48

Why on earth should I leave Britain? I don’t have to believe that someone can rule over me because of their family history to live here. Neither do I have to believe a human should be born with their life mapped out for them.
i just live with the fact that quite a lot of the country believe otherwise for reasons I’ll never understand.

WillPowerLite · 14/09/2022 12:48

AuxArmesCitoyens · 14/09/2022 12:34

I wondered who Bagshott was but am too polite to say so 😇

In my head, I'm hearing Bagpuss. Clearly I am one of the lower orders. 😀

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 14/09/2022 12:55

There is no document setting out the detailed principles of a UK constitution. None. There are plenty of books chewing the fat over whether or otherwise there even IS a British constitution, and if so how we might interpret that term considering how nebulous a concept it's become as the 20th century progressed. As to the extensive constitutional reforms brought in by Tony Blair's government - the most radical since WWI, the manifesto on which they were elected - judge for yourself how well those turned out. And I'm still none the wiser as to what those posters continually telling others to 'read the constitution' 😂would like them to take out of this process, or how they anticipate this will change their position and make them ardent supporters of the monarchy. Are there any takers?

As a counter-argument, I could just as easily urge you to look up the term 'elective dictatorship' or to read the Irish Constitution (unlike the British one you can read it in full, including all articles and amendments), especially those relating to the sovereignty of the republic, separation of powers, and rights of the Irish people. As a system of liberal democracy it's an effective model. Curious as to how these points might compare to the issues with British one you are claiming to know all about.

It's not only the Windsors, who are a small aspect if an influential figurehead of a dying system, around which questions are being asked about a UK constitution pretty much in its decline. To the extent that we do have a set of rules around which government is based, we have constitution (for what it's worth). But even academics are divided over its meaning. The traditional principles of state and national identity - that 1000 years of 'history' monarchists bang on about - is pretty much redundant given every government seems to lack faith in its own principles and seek to 'modernize' it at every given opportunity. And now we've even seen fit to remove the checks and balances afforded us by the EU a radical reform of the whole system is even more urgent.

As well as '1000 years of history have worked perfectly well, it provides stability' [it doesn't, for above reasons; that is a comforting illusion], monarchists like the argument that it would be a terrible idea to overthrow the system without complete clarity as to what its benefits would be, and the exact structure of what replaces it. I agree completely. It needs a gradual transition and careful consideration, not an idealist revolution. That's a discussion which was always going to begin with the death of Elizabeth II. And those questions are starting as of now.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 14/09/2022 13:00

WillPowerLite · 14/09/2022 12:48

In my head, I'm hearing Bagpuss. Clearly I am one of the lower orders. 😀

Well I'm lower-order too, because I think Bagpuss rocks. He was really the clever one. Yaffle the one who thought he was smart but was really a bit gormless. Imagine a dusty old academic being trolled by a gaggle of blue-collar workers (mice) who at one point even rebel against him and go on all-out strike!

(starting to sing under my breath 'as soon as this pub closes, the revolution starts ...)