Make me feel better about staying in London please!

[Sudbury]

Partner and I are going to move out of our London flat as we want more space / garden for the toddler and baby.

I’m desperate to use this as a way to leave London and head for a smaller city, think: a Cathedral city so somewhere with culture, history and an identity - basically York or Norwich, but probably York. Somewhere we can get a slightly bigger cheaper house, have a calmer pace of life, make new friends, grow our own veg and not raise children who may be entitled London brats.

Reasons being I find London life annoying is I’ve been here 13 years and it’s increasingly fast paced, crowded, polluted and competitive. Don’t like being so far away from the countryside, living in the same city as friends but it taking an hour and a half to get to them because it’s so bloody big, no real sense of community, the general feeling of stress and busyness that seems to scent the London air.

Partner is not keen to leave, at least not now and gives very sensible reasons. We’d have to find new jobs / retrain as we both have London centric careers and while we do want to retrain now is probably too soon. We don’t have friends of family outside London in the places we’d like to move and raising young kids with no friends or family close by (which would be the case if we moved) is bloody hard. Other places may be less open / accepting of people who don’t 100% fit the straight, white, Christian mould.

I know in my heart that partner is right, and if they also wanted to leave I’d be voicing some of their reasons for staying. But I still get a horrible pang of longing whenever we leave London, or conversely view a house In London that costs double what a bigger house would cost elsewhere.

Help! Convince me that London is worth staying in and that the dream life doesn’t lie in York

Move to a better bit of London. We did just that. Where we are you can get a nice 4 bed with a big garden for £650k, we have 100s of acres of ancient woodland on our doorstep and front door to my zone one desk is half an hour.

Yes well I didn’t say “I don’t want my kids growing up like those brats @edwinbear’s kids and their friends” did I?

It’s not personal to anyone who loves London or their kids, I used to love it too. Just finding I’m getting a bit disenchanted with it as I get older, and that having the kind of life we’d rather have for may be a bit more challenging to achieve here than elsewhere.

Professional Northerners?
Or just people who know how long it takes to get to London from cities further north than Birmingham?

I know York really well, and from several visits to Norwich it seems to have a similar vibe, albeit less touristy and fewer travel connections.

Other similar cities would also be of interest but as my partner’s made it clear they won’t leave for a good long while (for good reasons) it’s not an option at the moment and I’m trying to put my yen to leave to bed.

Oh I see. Well, if you can't move then you'll just need to find enjoyment in where you live. Your children will be fine. Whereabouts do you live?

Stay in London!!

Maybe move nearer to some friends or newer a great park or something.

I moved out for a more affordable house, but it's one of my biggest regrets. Like you I (thought) I was fed up with London, turns out I wasn't, the grass isn't greener & I can't afford to move back. I'd LIVE to move back, but not into the type of place, in the type of area, I can afford. <sob>

OK, I’m still struggling to understand why London kids are more likely to be entitled, but let’s put that to one side.

if your partner wants to stay in London and you agree it might be for the best at the moment, it sounds like you need to find somewhere with a bit more green, parks and community spirit. Have you looked at Blackheath/Greenwich/Lee Green/Hither Green/Lewisham? All within a 2 mile radius of each other? Then you’d have the space of Greenwich Park, the village feel of Blackheath/Hither Green and the diversity of Lewisham. Halloween in Hither Green is amazing, lots of houses go to loads of effort to decorate their house for the (well behaved) kids, there is a big community street fair every year, an open air, pop up cinema in a park in Lee Green every summer…..the list goes on.

I use this as an example as it’s where I live and know, but I’m sure other London MNetters have similar suggestions.

Brats. What a way to talk about children…

Yes I half suspect I might be the same. But the yearning for hypothetically greener pastures is hard to tamp down.

Must remind self of all the lovely things about London and stop aching for proper wild countryside and the “rose tinted” friendly northerners of my youth…

Family
Friends
Good museums
Really good theatre
Polish restaurants
Well connected airports
Lovely architecture
Mix of people
Turkish greengrocers
Amazing parks
Lots of jobs
Several symphony orchestras
24 hour chemists / corner shops
Great transport network
Afghan restaurants
Jewish Ethiopians
Injera
Synagogues
Friends who come and visit from other places

You had me until the brats part! I was born and raised and in London thanks.

Reading your list of good things, I think you should stay. Seems you live north of the river.

And don’t we all know it 😉

It’s the wealthiest bit of the UK? Having more tends to lead to expecting more. I didn’t say all kids in London were entitled, just that if we stayed there was a greater chance that ours might be that way - probably says a lot about where we live and the schools around us. Many many very expensive private schools.

I think Greenwich is probably out of our price range for a house, though have heard nice things. Will look into Hither Green though, thanks.

Most of your list you will find in big cities outside London - there are Somali and Eritrean communities with bakeries selling injera. I've seen Turkish supermarkets in lots of places etc
The only thing would be not so many synagogues - you'll be aware that the Jewish community is not so large outside London. Maybe Manchester or Leeds?

I think you need to stop blaming the city you live in for how you feel or how your kids turn out.

If you raise entitled brats that will be your parenting not London or York or Norwich. You.

If you're stressed or don't feel part of a community or feel in competition with people that's all you. It's not where you live.

Maybe talk to a counsellor. Make some inward changes.

good list, plenty more you could add to it!!

great pubs
thai restaurants
fabulous book shops
variety of cafes

there is always something going on.

I sum it up with one word. LIFE.

I cannot emphasise just how much I regret moving out.

... you don't know what you've got till it's gone...

yes I'm only an hours train ride away, but by the time you've driven to the station, parked, waited for the train, got to Waterloo & then gone to where I actually want to be, I'm looking at 2/3 hours & ££££. All to just 'be there' instead of rolling out of bed & being a 5 minute walk to a buzzing area.

<deep envy of those living in London>

Yes obviously parents are the biggest influence on kids lives. But where they live, their school, their peers, their wider family, how much money they have or don’t have etc. obviously all also have a big influence. If these things didn’t matter nobody would ever move to a different catchment area or pay for music lessons or try to gently steer them away from troublesome friends no?

I don’t think finding London more stressful than smaller places, or harder to feel part a community than smaller places is that uncommon? Aren’t levels of loneliness and stress supposed to be highest in London? Which is not to say I shouldn’t also try to change my attitude @NuffSaidSam, one of the reasons I started this post was to ask people to share their reasons to feel good about living in London, to see what I could glean. It was meant to be lighthearted.

Entitled London brats?
What an obnoxious thing to say. If your kids are brats it’s down to you not London.

OK, I understand where you’re coming from now, generally being surrounded by huge amounts of wealth and wanting to keep up.

South of the river is your friend here….generally perceived as the ‘poor’ bit of London but I find it much more down to earth. (DSis is in Highgate). Some very affordable houses in Hither Green & Lee Green, 15 mins into London but obviously no tube. 20 min drive and you can be in Kent, we drove an hour to get to the sea last weekend (Whitstable) which was fantastic!

Yes obviously parents are the biggest influence on kids lives. But where they live, their school, their peers, their wider family, how much money they have or don’t have etc. obviously all also have a big influence. If these things didn’t matter nobody would ever move to a different catchment area or pay for music lessons or try to gently steer them away from troublesome friends no?

But these are all examples of parenting aren't they? Picking a school, deciding on music lessons or not, your financial situation, how you deal with troublesome friends are all parenting decisions, they're not rooted to what city you're in. You can have music lessons or make bad friends in London or Norwich or York or in fact any other UK city (and I'm sure any city in the world). It's not London based.

It’s the wealthiest bit of the UK? Having more tends to lead to expecting more.

The list of top 20 (even top 10) local authorities wih highest indices of deprivation features a high number of London boroughs. A lot of wealth and economic activity is generated in London, doesn't mean the people living there are the wealthiest in the UK.
I second the PP who said London is like hundreds of connected villages. You clearly don't like the village you are in and I would suggest finding another village that gives you the sense of community you crave (and yes, it may be a less affluent area)

These are all examples of parents / caregivers trying to influence the other factors in their children's lives like location, peers, schools etc.

You were claiming that parenting was more or less the only influential factor in a child’s life, and that my kids would turn out the same no matter what the other factors in their life (beyond parenting) were if our parenting was the same. If that was the case my kids would have exactly the same life / personal outcomes if they went to a private school in Highgate with posh friends, music and chess lessons and no money worries vs if we moved them to Bradford, with a mix of friends and sent them to a school in special measures and that didn’t have a chess club or music lessons. Because we their parents would be the same and would be teaching them the same values / they’d be learning from our example.

Its just not the case.

I've lived in central and outer London and don't recognise your description. The great thing about a big city is that there are so many different social groups and communities out there and you can find one you like and fit into. There's no need to hang out with people who like a fast paced lifestyles, there's no need to have 'London brats' (whatever they are?). There is a sense of community if you find the right place and friends, and you can have local friends too. But there are also plenty of places outside London where it's perfectly acceptable and normal to not be straight, white or Christian. I wonder if your own expectations and prejudices might be influencing how you see these places - you expect 'London brats' and frenetic lifestyles, so that's what you see?

I live in London. We have a community - I was here just a couple months when people I met dog walking put me on our street's WhatsApp group and I was invited to a coffee morning.
Halloween is like the movie ET - loads of little kids running around trick o' treating! My neighbours are friendly and welcoming.
My daughter commutes to central London for school. It's a selective private girls school, but there are plenty who I would not describe as 'London brats'.
I also have lived outside London. And there I met plenty of non white non Christians.
I love London. It has everything- culture, great shopping, the centre of finance, amazing food. I love the buzz, the pace, the atmosphere. I don't have to be in the West End every day to enjoy that.
If none of that is appealing then off you go.

I live in a 'cheap' (relatively speaking) bit of unfashionable London borough and the community vibe is strong! You haven't met people through your kids nursery etc? If you volunteer for community stuff then that also helps you meet people. I thought I wanted to move out of london when I had kids but actually I think they'll love growing up here. Just wish my tiny terrace garden was bigger and the air quality a bit better! But the multicultural experience is worth it imo