To take DD out of her nursery and try something else

[LeafyAutumn]

Hi all!

I am relatively new to mumsnet but was hoping to see if I am being completely unreasonable to consider taking DD who is 2.6 out of her nursery.

DD has been doing 4 full days at the very popular nursery for about 4 months now. The nursery has fabulous reviews and I was really excited for us to get a place there. I am studying for extra qualifications at the moment and am very flexible so we been doing quite a lot with her together before the nursery (playgroups/ballet classes/music ) etc . Basically she had a lot of interactions with different kids anyway.

Since starting this nursery she's been brilliant and the feedback I been having from the staff was that she is a very lovely and confident girl and that every day was a good day. However, since her very first month there she's been telling me that the teachers do shout quite a lot and some times put naughty kids on a naughty chair the practice I don't think is really beneficial to kids at any age. She keeps on saying that she really likes the nursery but doesn't really like the people there. That is quite worrying for me as I wanted her to have a good relationship with her first nursery teacher and it feels like she sees it more as a camp .

It probably doesn't help that every single day there seems to be a new member of staff that brings her out and when I asked her she doesn't even know who her key worker is and what the names are of the other staff members. The nursery goes out on a lot of outings like walks/local parks and forest schools but DD always comes back with some (thankfully minor) accidents or wet through (staying this way the whole day) and I never know who is actually looking after her on those days as staff members constantly change one another.

It also worries me that there is no cleaning staff at the nursery meaning the staff has to clean up a lot and sort the meals out when I would expect them to be focused on the kids at all times

I feel quite uneasy as I don't feel like there is a key person responsible for my dd nor do I have a clear picture of what practices do they use if kids are misbehaving such as refusing food/nap/not sharing/not listening. I didn't expect the naughty chair to be used anymore at all to be honest as in Germany for example this is not allowed at all .

DH thinks we should stick with it or maybe reduce it to less days a week but I just don't feel that this nursery is the right place for her and that she was much happier when she was just attending different classes. Perhaps child minder would be a better environment for her as she would have a closer bond with someone this way and I would feel like I know this person?

Feel free to say AIBU as I am properly expecting too much from the nursery setting. Also did anyone else experience just not feeling like nursery was the right place for their child despite any clear reason behind it?

I don’t think you’re expecting too much, their communication sounds really poor. I wouldn’t expect to have to ask my child who their key person was, every time this changed for DD (when she was moving between rooms) the nursery wrote to us and we usually had a chance to meet them before the change took effect. The nursery we use has had a lot more staff turnover than usual this year but we had email updates about any new staff and there were always photos displayed outside the room, and an existing member of staff would introduce them to us if we hadn’t met.

I’d want to know more about the “naughty chair” and would specifically ask them about it. I wouldn’t necessarily take a 2 and a half year old’s word for it, it could be something like a space for quiet time for children who have got a bit overwhelmed - my DD at that age could definitely have misrepresented something like that to me.

Obviously children shouldn’t be left in wet clothes all day, they should be asking you to bring in spares to keep there for these eventualities (and I’d expect a nursery to have a stash of emergency clothes for if these have run out).

By all means go with a childminder if you prefer but I don’t think this is a nursery problem, this is a this nursery problem.

I agree with the previous comments. I have worked in various settings with young children and some of your comments about your daughter’s nursery would make me a little concerned.
Listen to your gut feeling about the overall situation and ask members of staff to answer your questions.

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all. Naughty chair is one thing that doesn't bother me personally, but the wet clothes? I'd lose my shit.

DD went to a nursery where parents were very fussy over things much smaller than what you're describing (i.e. child not wearing a coat at pick up). It was too much, however staff were held accountable and were very understanding.

I would definitely take some steps before pulling out your DC. Speak to the staff, ask questions, ask for updates. Do you have a parent class rep and whatsapp group? It really helped when parents had any issues or questions!

Good luck OP!

Lots of preschools (and indeed schools) use a thinking chair/sitting out type punishment. I don’t have a problem with it personally as long as it’s being used appropriately. It’s also fairly normal for staff to be cleaning up and preparing food during the day - a childminder would need to prepare lunch too! So would a parent for that matter.

Staff shouldn’t be shouting, but I think some children perceive an adult using a firm and clear voice or being displeased as “shouting”, so I’d not necessarily take that at face value.

It’s just pure neglect to leave a child wet through all day though and I’d expect to know who my child’s keyworker was and for my children to know the names of staff.

Just to add a few points.
My DD's language is extremely mature for her age so she usually tends to say things as they happened although of course she might misinterpret some of the situations. She doesn't dislike her nursery as such but definitely doesn't enjoy it as much. She sees it more as a camp. For example yes the spends a lot of time outside but I am yet to see a single craft thing she's made (she is very into crafts at home and draws a lot). So I don't think she is doing what she would really want to do.

With regards to the naughty chair (and shouting) that is my biggest concern at the moment as this kind of punishment and punishments as such are not allowed in the country where I come from anymore. They are simply considered a short term solution and have proven to be damaging in a long term. I chose this nursery specifically as it positions itself as child led and therefore I assumed kids are not simply being trained there to follow instructions (which is of course important) but are above everything treated as individuals?

Are naughty chairs/cry it out/timeouts used in most nurseries/schools in the UK?

Its a big dilemma for me at the moment as I probably did expect quite a lot from the nursery and/or failed to ask the right questions at the very beginning? Probably a combination of both.

I agree with everyone else.

Sometimes, however good a small child's language is, they interpret things their own way, so I would never take things as gospel without having conversations with the staff.
Some children do need to be removed from situations that are overwhelming them, or situation when they are hurting others in a busy Nursery sometimes too. Yes, that is likely to happen in all settings where there are multiple small children, whatever they call it.

Like pps, I would expect to know who their KW was and I wouldn't expect them to be in wet clothes for any amount of time.

I wouldn't be concerned about bumps, scratches and grazes if they are out and about for a lot of the time - it sounds like they are being allowed to run and climb, which I think is great for children of all ages.

She might have sophisticated language but that doesn’t necessarily mean she has a sophisticated understanding of what’s gone on - she’s two and a half. Mine at that age told her preschool teacher a very convincing tale about me being arrested - I’d spoken to a policeman who came to the door to discuss the welfare of a neighbour!

I’m not sure about cry it out because that means different things to different people and tends to be applied to babies and sleeping. I wouldn’t be at all impressed by a nursery that just ignored a crying child for ages if that’s what you mean.

But yes, it’s normal (at least in the half a dozen nurseries/preschools/early years of school I’ve come across) to have some sort of sitting out/time out/thinking chair type consequence for children. It’s not called a naughty chair though. While it might not be how you would manage behaviour at home, in the context of a large group of children there has to be some following of basic rules and some consequences to eg deliberately whacking another child over the head with a toy. I’ve never seen it used with children too young to understand and the child has always been in the room - it’s presented as a couple of minutes out of the activity to calm down.

What consequences would there be for hitting or biting for example at a nursery in your country?

Ultimately though you sound unhappy with her care (the wet clothes etc is pretty poor) and therefore I’d suggest you move her.

I wouldn't be too worried about the naughty chair thing - it wouldn't be my first choice, but I think it's in the range of acceptable - but I think it not being clear who her key worker is is extremely poor. It suggests they're only really using a key worker system on paper. Finding that she's wet at the end of the day is also really worrying. This isn't standard practice that you just have to put up with - by all means consider a childminder but another nursery is also an option, they don't all do this.

Naughty chair/step- lots of nurseries use this and even schools do an equivalent (time out) etc. it would be an age-appropriate amount of time ie 2 mins for a 2 year old.

Shouting - can just mean raising voice. I imagine lots of children in a busy room means that staff have to raise their voice to be heard.

Cleaning - you are being precious about, it’s fairly standard for the staff to clean up

Key person - you’re not unreasonable to be confused about this, you should have been told on day 1 who your daughter’s key worker is

Minor accidents - normal

Staying in wet clothes all day - not acceptable

Your daughter’s advanced language is irrelevant - she’s 2 years old. She hasn’t got the understanding of situations in the same way an adult does. I think you need to speak to the nursery about the issues you’ve mentioned ie the key worker and wet clothes, because their reaction and how they deal with it will be telling.

I did have a chat a couple of days back with the nursery to be told that her key worker is leaving the nursery. It was one of the major things for me as I wanted her to have a person to turn to and not just to have different members of staff replace one another. People don't seem to stay long in this nursery.

Contrary to many the naughty chair is not a normal thing in our household. I surely do not expect my husband to sit on naughty chair when he is saying something unreasonable for example. I would feel very isolated if that was used on me and probably ashamed. I definitely wouldn't just do that to a child. As I mentioned in my country it was replaced by distracting a child, changing activity, telling a child that something (for example hitting) wasn't very nice but maybe they are overtired or want to read a book with the second teacher instead of playing at that moment of time. Always keeping in mind that a child is a growing individual and most of those behaviours are very normal and common.

There is a huge crisis in the childcare sector at the moment - lots of nurseries are struggling to recruit staff. It's not unique to the nursery you are using.

I don't think hitting another child means that you should be "rewarded" by changing activity but nonetheless your opinion on the naughty chair is perfectly valid. However, people are just explaining that this method of discipline is widely used in UK childcare/school settings. You're entitled to switch your child to another nursery for whatever reason you like, but once your child gets to school age, you'll have much less autonomy over this.

Honestly, it's pretty much my vast experience of nurseries around me across two dc. If you've got other options, listen to your gut. My experience of talking to inadequate provision is that it's window dressing, it's either right or it isn't.

I agree that the lack of care is similar to school but why expose them before you have to?

I'd sort something else out and then give notice.

It doesn't sound like she is in danger - just that they are not a very good nursery. There are some great ones out there so worth looking around.

Trust your instincts.

There’s no excuse for wet clothes. I would complain about that.

Who knows re the shouting, even a 2.5YO with sophisticated language probably isn’t going to say that the teacher used a stern tone of voice, they’ll just say shouting, even when it wasn’t really.

My DD’s nursery had a ‘thinking spot’, it sounds nicer but it’s essentially time out, naughty spot, whatever you want to call it… fair enough if you don’t do it at home but it’s a pretty standard thing. The redirect approach isn’t always going to be an option when the whole class are doing one activity.

Fair enough if it’s not the right fit for you, go see what other options there are locally maybe.

Contrary to many the naughty chair is not a normal thing in our household. I surely do not expect my husband to sit on naughty chair when he is saying something unreasonable for example. I would feel very isolated if that was used on me and probably ashamed. I definitely wouldn't just do that to a child. As I mentioned in my country it was replaced by distracting a child, changing activity, telling a child that something (for example hitting) wasn't very nice but maybe they are overtired or want to read a book with the second teacher instead of playing at that moment of time. Always keeping in mind that a child is a growing individual and most of those behaviours are very normal and common.

I personally never used it in my house either, but then, I didn't have a dozen of more 2 yr olds in my house at any one time with only 3 adults looking after them. There are all sorts of things that work in a classroom or other Nursery setting that aren't needed at home.
You also seem to not be considering that many of the dc at Nursery will be very, very different in so many ways from your articulate, craft loving 2 yr old. Different circumstances need different approaches. Some things work for some dc and not for others. There are many things that work for one child for a while and then don't, or the other way round.
It must be lovely for you to have a dc who doesn't sometimes need taking out of the situation for a couple of minutes to calm down, but that doesn't apply to all the children, in any setting. Statistically there will be dc who need to be removed from a situation at times.

The same with the KW leaving. Anyone can leave a job whenever they want to, for whatever reason they want to. There is a HUGE shortage of people wanting to work in Nurseries at the moment. People can earn far more working in a supermarket and when you are on minimum wage and prices are rising, then a lot of people don't have the luxury of being able to stay in a low paying job. I know of Nurseries that have had to stop children coming in because they can't get staff to cover ratios. No, it isn't ideal they are getting different people to cover, but it does sound as if your Nursery is managing to get the staff. Of course at this time of year people will be on Annual leave too.

If you aren't happy leaving her there, then do look round for somewhere else, but the examples you have given (except for the wet clothes) are prevalent across the sector, so I think you will find similar at the next Nursery too.

I wish I had moved my daughter from hers. My younger child went to a childminder couple and that was brilliant. My older child grew anxious at nursery with the shouting and "long stares if I needed a wee" at nursery. Some nurseries are great but others are oversubscribed and the staff (in my opinion) are too young.

That's what worries me. I am paying a lot of money (I mean I could have paid for any extra classes with that money) for the environment which it quite frankly not child-led and really suppresses her personality more than anything else.

Maybe find a childminder, more one to one care and less children, so your child will receive more attention. X

One of my children loved nursery, one got upset every time so we moved to a childminder where he had a fabulous time and was happy, settled and formed a great bond with the childminder who 15 years later he still remembers very fondly. My third child who was the most outgoing struggled with nursery and we tried everything. It wasn't the staff - she loved them, it was the environment, too many kids, too much noise etc so i withdrew her and we did lots of clubs and activities and she blossomed and was much happier. Every child is different and what suits one may not suit another but as her mum rely on your instincts as you know her best.

I've not heard of the naughty chair at nursery.
The high turnover thing aside from current recruitment problems could be a concern - you should always have a named key worker and know who they are.

My daughter was at a nursery like the one your describing and we pulled her out.

She is absolutely loving her new nursery.

The problem isn't with nursery but is with this nursery and the way it's run. I'd try to find a new nursery. You now know what questions to ask before you choose one! Are they really being left in wet through clothes all day?? That's awful if so.

I think having different staff all the time is poor. These places pay appallingly so staff turnover is huge.

I would be visiting other nurseries and asking questions about staff turnover and practice. If staff are constantly leaving they are clearly not happy there either.