To take DD out of her nursery and try something else

[LeafyAutumn]

Hi all!

I am relatively new to mumsnet but was hoping to see if I am being completely unreasonable to consider taking DD who is 2.6 out of her nursery.

DD has been doing 4 full days at the very popular nursery for about 4 months now. The nursery has fabulous reviews and I was really excited for us to get a place there. I am studying for extra qualifications at the moment and am very flexible so we been doing quite a lot with her together before the nursery (playgroups/ballet classes/music ) etc . Basically she had a lot of interactions with different kids anyway.

Since starting this nursery she's been brilliant and the feedback I been having from the staff was that she is a very lovely and confident girl and that every day was a good day. However, since her very first month there she's been telling me that the teachers do shout quite a lot and some times put naughty kids on a naughty chair the practice I don't think is really beneficial to kids at any age. She keeps on saying that she really likes the nursery but doesn't really like the people there. That is quite worrying for me as I wanted her to have a good relationship with her first nursery teacher and it feels like she sees it more as a camp .

It probably doesn't help that every single day there seems to be a new member of staff that brings her out and when I asked her she doesn't even know who her key worker is and what the names are of the other staff members. The nursery goes out on a lot of outings like walks/local parks and forest schools but DD always comes back with some (thankfully minor) accidents or wet through (staying this way the whole day) and I never know who is actually looking after her on those days as staff members constantly change one another.

It also worries me that there is no cleaning staff at the nursery meaning the staff has to clean up a lot and sort the meals out when I would expect them to be focused on the kids at all times

I feel quite uneasy as I don't feel like there is a key person responsible for my dd nor do I have a clear picture of what practices do they use if kids are misbehaving such as refusing food/nap/not sharing/not listening. I didn't expect the naughty chair to be used anymore at all to be honest as in Germany for example this is not allowed at all .

DH thinks we should stick with it or maybe reduce it to less days a week but I just don't feel that this nursery is the right place for her and that she was much happier when she was just attending different classes. Perhaps child minder would be a better environment for her as she would have a closer bond with someone this way and I would feel like I know this person?

Feel free to say AIBU as I am properly expecting too much from the nursery setting. Also did anyone else experience just not feeling like nursery was the right place for their child despite any clear reason behind it?

DD mentioned a few times being put on a separate table to eat from her friends because she was singing and as a result she wouldn't eat anything on those days.

There has been a few things over the months nothing dramatic of course but also she definitely doesn't enjoy it as much and doesn't have any special connection with the staff. Perhaps its just that they are so low paid which is absolutely unfair considering that they are looking after our most important people.

With regards to early childhood education I still believe government day care settings is the best way to go like it is in some countries

Why have you not spoken to the nursery about any of this? What is their behaviour policy?

I think before you do anything you need to talk to the nursery.

Your first step should be to speak to the manager about the “naughty chair” and what it involves, as well as the lack of key worker.

For what it’s worth, I don’t recall any such thing at my son’s nursery, which I found to be a loving environment that was also really good at teaching behaviour (kind hands, apologising if they accidentally hurt another child, knowing how to communicate that a game had got too rough and they wanted to stop etc). I’m sure they had some sort of time out mechanism but would have been quite subtle and unlikely to have had kids separated from the others in a way that the others would even have noticed.

Does the building have a garden/yard? Forest school type stuff is all very well, but what works best is an indoor/outdoor venue where they can be out or in depending on what they fancy- and come in straight away to get changed if they get wet. At 3 ours did not have to ask to go to the toilet, they just went, and a teacher would follow to assist if needed.

Also talk to the other parents about how they perceive it and how their children anew getting on. If the nursery can’t reassure you with their answers and you have no childcare need to use it then there doesn’t seem to be any reason to continue. However bear in mind that soon she’ll be doing a bit of actual learning- basic phonics and numbers and a bit of toddler science, so you might want to make sure you find a way to introduce that yourself soon because if she is bright she will enjoy that.

One word of caution though- you do sound as if you have a very rose-tinted idea of how things are done in your home country, yet perhaps it’s impossible to know how that plays out in reality until you are actually a parent there. It seems like this comparison to something that, let’s face it, isn’t relevant unless you plan to leave the U.K., may be clouding your judgment. And you are being a bit silly suggesting that a method used for a child isn’t valid because it would not be appropriate for an adult!

I am not saying it is not a valid method at all I am saying that I do treat children the same way as I would adults and expect the early childhood staff to have an understanding of kids psychology and why they do things or behave in the ways they do instead of simply using the punishment each time?

I've had a very positive experience so far with 2 of eldest dc's school in the UK and neither of them were ever punished in any way that might have made them feel humiliated . They did however attend the daycare setting in my home country so it is in a sharp contrast from my DD's experience.

OK, the fact that you have put other children through daycare in your home country does change what I said about perception vs reality of that method. You didn’t mention until now that you had any experience of putting any other child into a different setting.

The first part of your response is a bit indignant. Perhaps it touched a nerve because I said you were being a bit silly imagining an adult being out into a “naughty chair” as being a direct comparison, which is what you said. The thing is, until you talk to the staff you don’t have the full picture of how they are approaching and seeking to change the behaviours, and it’s unfair to conclude without further discussion that they have no understanding of child psychology and are just doling out punishment in an unthinking way. As others have said, in a group setting it is important to remove a child from a situation where they could cause physical harm to a peer, or upset others, so using a “time out” technique could be more to prevent the situation from escalating than to punish. All you can do is talk to them and take a view after that as to whether to move on.

I think if your core philosophy is treating children as you would adults then it’s probably a Montessori setting you need?

I think that you should trust your gut feeling.

A red flag for me would be the high turnover of staff. That means that they're not happy working there. Why?

It is normal for staff to do tidying up in nurseries, I think.

I'm a childminder and I never use a "naughty chair". I don't use the word naughty. I might remove a child from the others to calm down if they are hurting others but it would be calming/thinking time.

I very rarely have to do it though as any negative behaviour is handled with a reminder and the tone of my voice.

On the odd occasion a child is having a huge tantrum then if me talking to them or attempting to offer comfort is met with even bigger screams, then they are too dysregulated to respond. So I would tell them that I'm here for them, that if they need help or a cuddle that they can come to me but that I am going to be over the other side of the (small) room to give them time to calm down first. I will label the feelings out loud "it looks like you're feeling really cross/sad right now"

It might seem like I'm ignoring them but I will be watching out of the corner of my eye and listening for when they seem to be calming down. I will then go to them to offer comfort and reassurance.

When you say you treat children as you do adults, what do you mean? Does your daughter go to bed when she wants? Eat whatever she chooses? Wash when she wants to?

This sounds so odd to me. I don't treat children as adults, because they aren't!

Plus, it is a requirement of the EYFS for parents to be told who the child's key worker is. Plus all EYFS settings are judged on how effectively they communicate with parents.

OFSTED outstanding doesn't always mean it's the best setting. Sometimes, these settings have got their formula down to a tee to tick the right boxes. I personally think that a 'Good' setting is better.

Most staff in a day nursery won't have the level of training that you're describing. Many are young girls straight out of college/school with the bare minimum qualifications and are paid minimum wage.

I personally think that finding someone with proper life experience is better. A parent tends to have learnt patience with their own kids. I have two disabled children so I am very experienced in having to be calm, patient and use outside of the box strategies.

However good you perceive your 2.5 year olds language to be. You're forgetting they're still a 2 year old, who is nowhere near to 3. They've got no experience of the world, that they can remember. They certainly don't have anywhere near the cognitive skill to interpret an adults behaviour.

And yes, a time-out chair, thinking area, whatever people want to call it - is very common practice in the UK.

Hi , EX nursery nurse here. I have worked in multiple nurseries and still vow that I will never put my children in one. (Or work in one again)

the naughty chair or anything of the sort is not in practice anymore . All nurseries have a policy to not label a child now. Most nurseries I have known, the word ‘naughty’ was banned completely.. as was isolation / punishment. It’s all about the gentle approach now.- ‘Why are you not listening? All of your friends are listening because they would like to learn xyz, let’s try again.’ Etc.

but the staff turnover is always huge - no continuity

young, under qualified staff with little to no experience with children (a lot are usually apprentices too which puts the qualified staff over ratios)

staff make life easier for themselves.. for example, if your child is on a sleep limit- 9 times out of 10 they will lie to you telling you that they were woke up - but actually keep the child asleep with all the rest so that they don’t have to use a staff member out of ratio to care for your child separately and they can chill with the other staff until wake up time. - this happens everywhere & is encouraged by management.

I’ve seen staff speak to children in a way that made me speak up, not change nappies because they can’t be arsed etc.
and believe it or not one of these nurseries was a top tier private nursery!!

nursery life is just chaotic from the worker side of things it’s not all it seems. The only benefit I see with it really is the interaction they get with other children (social and communication skills).
Personally I would rather have a dedicated child minder that maybe would take them to playgroups/ classes etc.

this is just my opinion but I have had a lot of experience in the industry so hope this helps x

As a former Nursery Nurse ,I have never seen a "NaughtyStep" being used.As NotSoSlimShady8 says "Naughty" is no longer used anywhere I have worked either."Time Out" to sit away from other DC if there is a problem ,is kinder and gives the child a chance to consider their actions.Realistically speaking Staff are changing Nappies,in the kitchen preparing food and so on .If you are not happy you are perfectly entitled to look around at another and compare.Sometimes one child likes the setting while another may settle better elsewhere.Maybe a Montessori type Nursery may suit you better? I certainly feel that children should be changed out of wet clothes ASAP.If there is a high Staff Turnover maybe the staff are unhappy too.

@NotSoSlimShady8 I have two friends who have worked in day nurseries that say exactly the same, that they would never pit their child in a day nursery, due to what they witnessed while working in one.

I don't think your expecting too much, I work in a nursery and you should 100% know your child's keyworker and there should be good communication between you both, this is quite hot with ofsted at the moment. I would also be worried about you child coming out soaked through, once perhaps it could be overlooked but not multiple times. I also in working in a nursery for ten years have only had to put a child on timeout twice so I would be a bit worried about the frequency and behaviour control in the setting. Maybe ask to chat to the manager/ keyworker.

You sound amazing!! That is exactly the approach I am looking for but seems like it's ridiculously hard to find in the nursery .

This ^

2 yr olds are not adults. They don't have the development or emotions or skills or experiences of an adult. I don't think any 2 yr old should be treated as an adult.

Surely thats not what I meant. I meant when it comes to respecting their feelings and emotions and guiding them through the process of figuring things out especially when they are overwhelmed/having tantrums. Many adults these days think kids just use it to manipulate and need to be simply told off. Yes its fine to have a relatively set out routine for them that doesn't involve suppressing their feelings in day to day.