To not agree with this school reward system?

[Danceswithduck]

Dd is headed to secondary school in September and they’ve done the big sell on their reward system of merits or whatever that are calling them.
If they get enough over the course of each term they can opt into trips. More points equals better and more exciting trips 🙄
Now I appreciate some kids might need this but dd is very intrinsically motivated and doesn’t need this stupid system. All it does is take away any natural motivation to strive to do well. No wonder the education system struggles. We have to bribe children and then they lose their natural curiosity and intrinsic motivation.
DD has been brought up to be very motivated but that will be knocked out of her by these types or reward systems, although no doubt some in her class need to be bribed to behave or make any effort.
DD likes to learn for the sake of learning. These systems take that away.
AIBU?

@aSofaNearYou

I do get that but Op has put a lot of emphasis on how naturally motivated her DD is and hasn't given any evidence that there actually has been a negative affect on that from these rewards.

how can she when her DD doesn't start the new school until next month!?!?!

she's concerned it might.

@Danceswithduck I do think extrinsic reward does alter intrinsic motivation.

the good news is, that most 'good' kids see right through it, I'm sure she'll be fine if you continue doing what you do at home.

Exactly, it's common sense.

DS was punished with behavioral points at school and therefore banned from trips away from school grounds, and couldn’t dress down on certain days due to these points so effectively punished three times over (detention served)
No motivation to do better as these lasted the years.

Self esteem destroyed.

Feels that way!

Exactly, I sure as hell don’t go to work for the sheer joy of it. I go because I get financially rewarded and have bills to pay.

Im sure you can withdraw your child from the scheme if you feel so strongly.

But basically “my child doesn’t need this so fuck the ones who can benefit from an incentive”. Fucking marvellous

It seems hypocritical, but it's useful to allow children to develop healthy skills around motivation. Like you say, as adults we have to spend quite a big chunk of our time on working for extrinsic rewards. But if possible, it's good for kids to develop the ability to enjoy working for something through intrinsic motivation. The suggestion people often make based on the research is that if we jump straight in with extrinsic motivators for too many aspects of a kid's life, we rob them of the experience of being intrinsically motivated to carry out valued tasks.

This! You will be glad as time goes on that there is some system to encourage messers to toe the line. It rewards positive behaviour and gives some kind of tool to teachers as they seek to teach students, some of whom couldn't give a dam. If your dd was coming home with stories of what went on in her class you would be outraged. So appreciate that schools at least are trying to keep learning at the centre. These merits are all around behaviour and not grades. Instead of constantly chasing the few rebellious ones they reward the compliant.

And your dd still has to go through her teen years!!!

Do you get paid to cook dinner or clean your house? There are things that need to be done - school work, chores etc. If you make everything something to be rewarded you take away the value of just doing the thing.

Work is a bit different. I bet you work with people who earn the same but can’t be bothered to do a decent job, and others that go the extra mile. Guess which ones were likely to have been constantly rewarded for things they should have had intrinsic motivation for.

Different children need different motivations. I pay my DD to go to school by linking her pocket money to her attendance. She was school refusing and she does like shopping, so we've found it one way to help her motivate herself. It hasn't solved everything but it has helped.
Let's face it, it's why many of us go to work to get nice things like a roof over our heads and food on the table. Not everybody is intrinsically motivated to work hard at school.
I'd love my dd to just want to do well (as I did in school) but she's just isn't .

You’ve clearly little experience or learning in the field. As you were.

You work hard at work for bonuses and promotions and higher pay? why shouldn’t kids get bonuses at school for doing well?

No I clean my home because if I don’t it is a tip. That isn’t because i’m intrinsically motivated I receive the reward of living in a clean home.

Regarding work absolutely but I am doing it to achieve promotion or recognition as are other colleagues - colleagues who don’t put the effort in etc and are happy to sit on a salary will not receive the ‘rewards’. It’s nothing to do with intrinsic motivation

Secondary school offers little in the way of intrinsic motivation for some children.

I don't envy my children's teachers having to control 1400 teenagers contained in one building. You can't expect them to use the same methods as you use on 1 child. I'm not sure about linking it to trips, but getting rid of merits and behaviour points which keep a record of behaviour so it can be addressed? No

If we dial down all the accusations of not caring about other kids or just wanting to brag, this is actually a really interesting topic. Is it possible to devise policies that will permit maintenance of intrinsic motivation in those who have it, while providing extrinsic motivation to those who need it, and what would that look like in a school?

Did you stamp your foot and pout as you typed that? 😂😂

No. I did look at my psychology certs.

No such thing as intrinsic motivation

Have a read

Then I’m sure you’ll recognise there are differing views in all research and hypothesis.

Token economy systems which is basically what merit systems are, are used in many settings. Unfortunately they rarely make long term changes to behaviour of individuals, but do help to manage behaviour in institutions. So I do agree to an extent with OP.

However as a teacher over 20
years, they can help motivate some students, particularly those who struggle to motivate themselves. They do need to be used realistically and merits given for work above and beyond, but it gives you a way to praise effort.

Often kids work hard but don't initially see it rewarded in higher grades and it can be a long hard slog to see the rewards of their efforts, unlike others who are always top of the class.

If you can come up with a better system to keep these students motivated, please feel free to share!

This is really tricky. Reward trips are earned for doing things right. Encourage your son not to see being missed off the reward as a punishment but as a reward not yet earned. The detention is the punishment; the behaviour point is the record. I know this is an extreme analogy but a criminal conviction will be punished by the court, the convict will then have a criminal record which may prevent certain privileges being accessed.
This may help your som understand that he hasn’t been punished multiple times.

YABU. Teachers have always bribed children - whether it's who gets to choose the reading book or sit next to the teacher in infants school, a new pencil/eraser/free time to the table who works the best / gets the highest score in primary school or merits or whatever, in high school, it's always happened and always will. Some kids do need extra encouragement and, even as an adult, isn't it nice to be recognised and rewarded for a job well done? If the rewards are actually given fairly (to those who deserve them), why would this demotivate your DD? If she loves learning, she will continue to love learning.

Where it is demotivating is where rewards are given inconsistently/to those who don't deserve them. Unfortunately, there's nothing to be done about that, except say that life's unfair.

Why did he continue to misbehave?

Totally agree OP. To those saying “schools need behaviour systems”, our school (admittedly a fee-paying one but that obviously doesn’t automatically equate to good behaviour) intentionally doesn’t have a system of merits. It stands against this idea that education is all about where it can take you (what job, reward, etc), as opposed to education for its own sake and human flourishing. The upshot of this is that from the very start in the infant school, children genuinely strive to learn for learning’s sake. The closest we have is a house system for sports day, swimming gala, etc. so they win points for their team, but not academic achievement or effort. The children all love learning - it really is noticeable on a far greater level than I have seen elsewhere.

DD’s gymnastics does the stupid “Star of the Week” BS and while I know they ensure everyone gets it throughout the year, it’s zero motivation - the first children to get it are always the disruptive ones or ones who find gymnastics difficult, and then they have no incentive for the rest of the year. Others like my daughter who are fairly competent are disappointed every week and finally get it for who knows what.

I honestly think it’s just lazy, unreflective “this is how we’ve always done it” pedagogy that sums up my problems with so much of the education system.