Is this too harsh?

[ihavechangedmyname54321]

I have absolutely had it with my 6 year old the last month or two. He has been hard work for years, on and off (sometimes we go through lovely periods) but this feels worse than before. His rudeness, disrespect and attitude are off the scale, and I see him turning into someone unpleasant and unlikable.

One of these traits is always wanting to be first/his way/wanting to control the game or activity. I see it with his younger sister, but also with friends. Constantly whinging “nooo/I want that toy/I don’t want to watch this” etc and being quite manipulative with it.

I feel like all I’ve been doing is reprimanding him recently. I saw him forcing his own way on his younger sister earlier and I told him exactly what he was doing, and how I had seen him do it with his friend earlier in the week, and that no one will want to play with him if he carries on - that he’ll end up with no friends.

I often do this. Now that he’s in bed of course I’m reflecting that he’s only 6, he’s so young, it feels very cruel and I’m so sad for him. But tomorrow when the moods, rudeness and entitlement starts, I’ll be doing just the same.

I honestly feel like I don’t like him, and that he is unlikeable.

NRTFT but FWIW I had this with my DS. When you tell other people all you'll get is "it just sounds like normal 2... 3... 4... 5... 6... year old behaviour" but as his mother I knew it wasn't typical. It was extreme and it was constant. To an extent that despite planning on a bigger family I chose not to have any more children as I found it all too much. Love every single cell of my son, he's my life and world, but my god he's been a difficult personality to navigate since very early on.

This year, aged 9, after a 3 year battle, he was diagnosed with 'significant ADHD' and referred for further assessments for suspected additonal ASD.

I always knew. It doesn't make me love him any less. He's my beloved boy. But the support to both him and myself that his been denied because people said his behaviour was normal was soul destroying. Especially at school. He's a bright bot, but he has to have the right support to achieve the best out of him, which he was persistently denied and simply labelled 'naughty' with a constant string of punishments. End of year reports were all 'bright, but refuses to focus, spends too much time chatting, under achieving but capable of better'

Since his diagnosis, school have HAD to listen and implement strategies and support him in ways that aids his learning to suits his particular needs. For the first year ever he's achieving at his expected level in all subjects and has a glowing report from all his teachers about his efforts and abilities.

You know your child. If you think this is extreme and more than just 'normal' 6 year old behaviour, go see your GP/talk to school about a referral to paediatrics for assessments.

Yes @Psychgrad my DH says I complain about everything, constantly. I was hard work as a child and had few friends, I don’t know if this was because I was hard to get along with or bad luck as I went to a very small village school with hardly any other girls in the class. I am someone who historically falls out with others easily, though not for a long time now.

I do need to ignore more I think, but I find it
so hard as rudeness makes me feel rageful. I have read the How to talk so little kids listen book but not the other.

Would many on here ignore rude backchat from a 6 year old? I feel like that is letting him “get away with it”…

Op this is either bratty behaviour or a sign that something is going on! A 6 year old should know better than to behave like this! Demanding his own way constantly will not stand him in good stead with friends or at school.

Yes and if he wasn't helped then it doesn't matter he's had three years, he's a child, not an adult!!

This is my 10 year old! There are parts that are still the same at 10 yet there are parts now, with lots of conversations that have improved like turn taking, choosing games. He actually recognises he hates loosing so if he's not in the mood, won't play. And his sister can now just tell him she's not playing if he carries on and follows through. I can't promise I'm calm with it and I have thrown the 'no one will be friends with you' card but actually he is very very well liked by his peers so it hasn't damaged that. I guess it is his personality and he will figure it out and being in charge and wanting the best will lead to great things for him in the future. As you say, he is kind and gentle so once his impulse control kicks in (genuinely won't happen properly until after teen years) and he really understands the needs of others, he will turn out ok.
The best piece of parenting advice I read was that you can't change their bahaviour, you can only change your own so read how to talk so kids listen and maybe something like whole brain child or Sarah Ockwell Smith.

@ChristOnABikeAsYouLike that’s interesting, what signs did you notice?

@bloodyplanes yes to me it feels very very bratty. I just wish I knew how to deal with it without constantly feeling like I’m putting DS down, as that’s only going to damage his self esteem further.

wtf yourself!!!

Why are his wants and needs more important than anyone else's!? He needs to learn to share, take his turn and stop controlling everything (all from OP's post)
All of which OP recognises and understands - and is looking for help with!

I honestly cannot fathom how some people parent (clue: I'm not talking about OP!)

Is his dad in his life?

@Junobug yes I look forward to when his sister gives him a run for his money. At the moment he can trick her into giving him his way (which is when I step in to be honest) by offering him the toy he has for the one she has, even though 2 minutes previously he had covered the other. She doesn’t really care a lot of the time.

Sometimes he seems so kind, today DD was at nursery (pre paid space) and so he and I had a very very rare day together. We had an event planned which he was so excited about and then was cancelled half an hour before we were due to leave. He was so sad, cried, and I comforted him as I felt so disappointed on his behalf. We made up for it though, I promised him a fun day which we had, and because DD hadn’t joined us he told me he wouldn’t tell her about our day because she might feel sad she’d missed out. I told him that was very sweet. Later that evening, he announced to DD exactly what we did while she was in nursery! Luckily she really isn’t at the age where she’s jealous yet so didn’t mind, and I was secretly pleased that if he was after her being upset, it didn’t happen. Jekyll and Hyde.

My friend's dd was like this at 2, 4, 6 and is 9 now - not got many friends at school and is very hard to like.

I would def reprimand him op and to people saying he 's only 6 - he won't always be 6 so needs to be taught he can't always have his own way!!

@justasmalltownmum yes Dad in his life,
we are together. We bicker which I’m sure doesn’t help but he is a very hands on dad.

I would love some tips on what to say to reprimand him!

Anything better than “if you keep bossing everyone around no one will want to play with you” etc. Something a bit kinder but still firm.

Sorry didn't mean that to sound judgy - was more 🤨at people saying it is his age so tuen a blind eye.
My friend's dd has since been diagnosed with adhd - they don't let her off the hook though. They manage it by giving her consequences so if she is going to strop if she doesn't win a game, no game is played. They don't pander to it basically and insist on good manners etc. It is better than it was but l know sometimes my friend struggles. Having said that, the dad can be a stroppy dick sometimes so l think some of it is learnt behaviour.

@Soproudoflionesses it didn’t seem judgey to me, it’s more me genuinely begging for tips as I’m clueless!

All of those natural consequences we do - DS is actually not too bad at losing a board game with me or DH (might be different with a friend, I don’t know. He was certainly fine with not coming first in sports day) but if he was fussing we would stop the game.

He’s not sporty (although an excellent bike and scooter rider) and I think he knows this as when his friends are playing football he’ll come up with an excuse to stop playing, or a reason to strop and refuse to play.

So many to list. But many of the signs you share in your post were present in my son. Bratty is definitely a word that's been banded about by a few people.

Excessive and OTT meltdowns and tantrums. Nothing is ever enough, can go on and on and on. Socially domineering and bossy, very argumentative, has to have his own way otherwise everyone is being unfair to him. Unable to maintain longlasting friendships. Obsessive and impulsive. Had delayed speech development causing major frustration and anger for him, but when it finally kicked in he's never known when to shut up, he can talk forever - but also has an odd occasional stutter where you can tell his brain his working faster than his mouth can keep.up with. He struggles to 'get to the point' and what could be said in a simple sentence is drawn.out over a long story. He doesn't know his own strength and speed and physically hurts people unintentionally. Has no filter and just says what he thinks even if it's hurtful and very tactless and fails to appreciateit if he's hurtful, but equally takes things other people say to him out of context and is easily offended. Lacks focus and concentration. Finds loud noises distressing and needs ear defenders in class (only just been allowed those), cannot follow rules - if you say "don't do that" he does it. Challenges, quizzes and interrogates everyone about everything. Has sensory issues and can't wear layers of clothes, wears totally inappropriate clothing for the climate which results in tantrums and meltdowns when told to change. Struggles with tying laces still, has trouble eating with a knife and fork and eats as messily as he did when he was a toddler. He collects and hoards anything and everything. Becomes attached to the trivialst of items and panics if he can't find them, but is so messy and untidy that this happens a lot. Has compulsions to be destructive and is drawn to making mess with things he finds nice to touch or has nice colours (I now have to be careful with toiletries and bath & body products I buy as he can't help himself)

Following this with interest as my son is the same and I feel horrendous that I don't like his personality most of the time.

Thanks for taking the time to list those points @ChristOnABikeAsYouLike. This is where I struggle with my DS as I have wondered in the past about his maybe being wired differently. But he’s never had quite enough to warrant being worried…no meltdowns to speak of, no sensory issues outside of the norm, no delays, nothing particular about routines.

But bratty is the key word. And if there is someone being difficult at a family gathering say, 95% of the time it’s him. He’s the eldest so has no one to play with really (several younger cousins the same age as DD) so it’s difficult to know if it’s truly him or if it’s because he is bored/feels left out/babies and toddlers are more straight forward. He is ok if an adult is giving him their full attention, for example playing board games with him. He seems to need a lot/constant stimulation or he gets too boisterous, loud and silly. He’s not reckless or destructive with things though, I can fully trust him around roads, he always stops and waits to be told to cross, and he knows not to mess with anything that belongs to DH or I in the house.

His concentration in groups isn’t great. Fine when sat at tables quietly doing work, but not at carpet time.

I would never ignore rudeness.

I feel so horrible saying this but reading your post is like describing my husbands eldest. He is a sweet loving boy & I worry so much about this side of his personality, from an outsider he’s exhausting & not many children want to play with him, which is so upsetting because I am certain this bothers him even if he acts aloof about it.

His lovely mum has tried so hard to make him friends with her friends children & he does do well enough mostly with these kids as they’ve known him from birth & know what he’s like, but he is from another child’s point of view probably quite hard work & also they don’t go to his school which is where I worry about him the most, because we aren’t there all day to remind him that it’s not his turn or to let other people have a say. He does seem to take it in when we have talks about letting other children have a turn & not to be resentful of other kids winning but especially now he’s older (11) it’s a lot harder to excuse a kid having a long whine at best, or a massive tantrum at worst for not winning / not getting the best one / not having the iPad someone else is playing on / not queuing up for the third time for the ride he wants & letting someone else pick the next ride.we had some dreadful scenes when he was too young to regulate these emotions but it’s improved a lot with age, there’s not really howling or snot involved now if you say no, just sulking. He’s not horrid to other kids apart from little brother at times & I put that down to normal siblings.

He doesn’t seem to grasp how to play fairly & it keeps me awake at night worrying if he’ll ever get invited to a sleepover (and if he’d be invited back by the parents for that matter). he can genuinely be so kind & lovely & I think that’s what makes me so sad about it all, I know he could be a lovely friend if he didn’t put people off by being so controlling. I don’t want to say bratty but that’s the best word really for how it must come across to other people. He’s really not a nasty boy in any way but he’s very ‘I want’ and it’s with everything, he’s less able to get his own way with brother now they’re getting older.
He seems to believe in the divine right of first-borns & it’s really unsettled him that little bro doesn’t always give in & immediately hand over the remote control / move because he wants that chair / swap drinks because his looks better / you get my drift.

At one time I was sure he must be autistic & definitely excused a lot of this thinking that must be it, but I was wrong, he’s not.
Younger brother is so much easier, just an absolute joy of a child to have around, incredibly popular & even tempered. Little brother takes after mum in that regard she is very sociable & likeable too, my husband is more shy & they put it down to the eldest taking after him but this seems quite different from being shy. He’s a really good kid in so many ways & I wouldn’t call it a personality flaw but it’s certainly not a personality asset.

I’m not his parent but I am really worried for his teenage years ahead, I desperately want him to make a friend I feel a bit sick thinking about him going through school spending all break times alone because if other kids avoid him now then what will it be like in 2 years. & just for him to grow up not feeling always like he got the crap second prize because that’s how he seems to see life if it isn’t 100% his way.

Wrong. So wrong. If this behaviour isn't addressed he won't have any friends. OP, 6 is old enough to teach them and YANBU.

I'm no expert, but I coach children around this age and a bit younger in a sport and would say this kind of behaviour is fairly common. I have a couple of little boys in my current group who always want to be first or be team leader and can get quite upset if they don't get to be in charge or don't win every time. I've coached similar girls in the past too, but I would say that more often it's boys.

I would say that most children have these tendencies to some degree but some seem to learn to take turns, share etc more quickly than others. To be honest, I think learning those kinds of things are probably the biggest benefit of organised sports and activities at that age, rather than the actual sport itself.
Of course I have a couple of natural advantages when it comes to behaviour management - I only have to do it for an hour at a time and I'm an adult authority figure who isn't Mum or Dad - so it's much easier for me.
I do think it is a normal developmental stage that most children go through to some degree but also that it needs to be managed, both for the benefit of others and ultimately for the child themselves. I generally stick to pretty basic stuff - praise good behaviour, ignore bad provided its safe to do so, and distract, distract and distract again! And be consistent. Make the expectations clear and the consequences immediate, predictable and fair. For me, if I can't distract a child who is misbehaving I usually them calmly that they need to go to sit with their parents until they have calmed down and are ready to join in again and follow the rules. I never shout but I don't give in to tantrums either. Obviously I appreciate its not so easy when you are the parent though!
Something else I have found helpful is to give alternatives and time frames and to speak positively rather than tell them "no". So instead of just saying "no, you can't go first every time" or "its not your turn to be leader" I might say "Mary is going first this time, then Freddie, then it's your turn" or " Suzie is team leader this week but I want you to be in charge of collecting the cones in at the end". And I make sure that they do get their fair share of going first. It can be tempting to always put the child who is constantly jumping up shouting "Me! Me!" to the back to teach them a lesson but I don't think that's fair. I think they need to learn that they are not more important than everyone else but they are just as important.
As i say, I appreciate that coaching is not parenting but there might be something there that helps a bit. I don't think you are unreasonable to want to address your son's behaviour but I also think he sounds fairly typical of lots of children his age so I wouldn't worry too much at this stage.

@Bb16103 you sound like a wonderful 'step-mum' to your husbands boy; he's very lucky to have you, and his mum and dad supporting him...lovely post. I don't have any words of wisdom to help your boy but just wanted to acknowledge your post, your feelings for your dss shine through your words 😊

(only used '...' as you didn't use the word step-mum - didn't want to be presumptuous)

@lemmein thank you so much for your kind words, that’s so kind of you to take the time. Please don’t worry, I don’t call myself his step mum but not because I don’t like him or anything sinister! It’s only that he has a pretty fab mum already & I’ve never wanted to push a relationship on them that they didn’t chose or ask for. Mums husband (pretty wonderful, she’s picked a good one) is referred as step-dad but he brings other children to the mix which I think makes it seem a bit more family unit. I think it would have really hurt mums feelings having this other woman using part of her title.
(No disrespect to anyone who is an official step mum, I’m not saying there’s a right or wrong way)!

I have a 6 year old who behaves in this way fairly often but not all of the time. He can be very rude and entitled, seems to think he is the top dog in the house. He is very bright and our first born so I think we have probably brought a lot of this on.

One thing I would wonder is - does your son actually behave like this with friends and at school or is it more an issue at home? Mine doesn’t exhibit this behaviour with his friends, is mostly able to take turns and share and feedback from school is that he is very sociable with lots of friends. I feel it’s a bit of a ‘restraint collapse’ symptom- the bad behaviour comes out at home where he is most comfortable. I do feel he has an underlying ‘nasty streak’ and I worry about this as he moves through school.

We also struggle with discipline and consequences. We try to use natural consequences (you tipped the toys out and wouldn’t put them away, I have to do it now so we don’t have time to do xyz) and we do use time out sometimes when he is rude and angry and not responding to verbal instructions.

I would be cautious with the ‘your friends won’t want to play with you’ as this could be quite shaming and not do anything to reduce behaviour. I completely empathise however and have certainly said unhelpful similar things on occasion.

Following for any advice on strategies!

@Bb16103 I agree you sound like a lovely mum/step mum/partner of your DSS dad! Luckily my DS doesn’t tantrum as such, so I think a lot of it has slid because he doesn’t throw a wobbly to get his own way. He’s just, bossy. And sometimes the other child lets him be in charge so I haven’t gotten involved. However it’s stepped up a gear the last few months, as has his general rudeness and attitude. To me he feels very clever, quite sly, sneaky and manipulative. Which sounds an awful thing to say but it’s what I see, I know him well!

@MrsAvocet thank you for your insights as a coach, it’s useful. DS is actually ok as far as I can see in a genuine sports’ setting - he’s not sporty really at all but goes to football training and they play mini matches. During these matches he’s pretty happy to prance around, not getting near the ball but applauding if a team mate does! And on sports day he was perfectly fine with not being first in any of the races, but he did get very upset when his friend (frenemy more like) went on and on about how DS’ House was last of all of them. So I don’t think he’s wholly unusual but it’s a very undesirable trait (his Frenemy is very undesirable overall but that’s another thread!).