NHS Excluding people in treatment for mental health conditions.

[Heathe]

Going to enable voting but realise this may not do me any favours. I am currently in treatment for a mental health condition, and currently applying for roles within mental health trusts. I have previously worked during this treatment so can demonstrate I can handle treatment and working, however, many of the jobs are stating that a person has to be in recovery, has to have experience of recovery etc.

These are Lived Experience, Expert by Experience, Peer Support Roles, Support Worker roles etc.

I'm just wondering whether excluding people currently in treatment for mental health conditions is actually against the Equality Act as a mental health condition is a protected characteristic.

Apart from the fact it has made me feel completely inadequate and has really knocked my confidence, I am starting to feel really frustrated that people who are treating patients with mental health conditions are so open to excluding them in this way, particularly when many of us are in group therapy so we have experience of hearing and dealing with other people's concerns and issues.

I'm interested to hear if anyone has a legal perspective on this, or if anyone else has found this when applying for roles?

YANBU - this is shit

YABU - this is sensible

People with trauma don’t “heal” though, which is why most clinicians don’t believe in recovery (apart from when writing job adverts!). People with trauma, especially significant trauma can manage day to day life but they do need to usually stay in therapeutic services long after they are managing day to day life because trauma doesn’t come out as a nicely packed narrative all in one coherent story.

No one should cause harm to others but I (and my treating team) don’t believe I would… however because I’m still doing my therapy (one of the things that keeps me well on occasion) Im barred from having jobs where my experience is advertised but not when im stable and doing well with support.

Yet there are plenty of clinicians practicing whilst having ongoing support for their problems.

@autocollantes i think most places got rid of psychometric testing because universities etc were prepping their graduates for it too much.

I do agree with your first paragraph though, there’s a big difference between being in crisis and being stable with support.

Apart from the fact it has made me feel completely inadequate and has really knocked my confidence

Really sorry it's had that impact on you, but that line jumped out to me as being of concern - lots of people here have talked about the stress of these roles and the need to be robust and you sound vulnerable already from the rigours of the application process. I think it's great that you're eager to apply yourself and your experience, but it seems like a more tangential role would make sense to start with and build up your confidence and resilience before going more coalface. Hope you find the right place and that your treatment is effective.

@MinervaTerrathorn so one example of me being “triggered” is by a specific type of perfume.

I had someone join group therapy who wore this perfume every session for 18 months - actually I’m pretty sure they showered in it.

I had to deal with it - but the way I dealt with it was via speaking about it in my individual therapy sessions.

I still have zero idea why it was an issue but it was horrendous but I still turned up, listened, shared, advised etc

so even though it was an issue it was also sort of a non issue due to being in my individual therapy.

@Pinkdelight3 thanks, important for me
to note - I wouldn’t say it was the rigours of the application process - I got through it until I asked for my working hours (more than once). It was the last email which basically said “why did you bother applying when recovery was a essential criteria”… the others were worded slightly nicer or discussed prior to interview etc.

But yeah maybe I need to think how robust I am - have definitely had worse said to me but this process (the job hunt) has been long now!

OP in all kindness it doesn’t sound like you are ready for a role requiring recovery as an essential criteria. You’re very defensive about your condition and treatment and should you be faced with criticism you cannot jump straight to defensive, especially in a peer support role.

Current functioning drug addicts aren’t taken on in peer support, active functioning alcoholics aren’t knowingly taken on in peer support type roles, there are reasons for this. It is bad for their own recovery. These decisions aren’t made out of badness, it comes from experience of having tried this and it not working.

Would volunteering be a short term option? It keeps your brain busy without the stress
of having a job. It gives you a degree
of flexibility around your own recovery.

The no medication rule is probably quite important because it shows a stage of recovery and if someone has to take medication for life, even when functioning, they are not recovered.

Please point out where I have been defensive? I’m not going to share too much about my condition as it’s outing - but I’m certainly not defensive about it. neither am I about my treatment, again outing to say too much - but given the referees are coming from my own treatment team I think that speaks volumes?

I don’t take medication so that’s not an issue.

Ive done heaps of volunteering - covid support, pharmacy delivery, food bank, forest school for at risk kids (now I’ve outed myself!) unfortunately it doesn’t pay bills or use my brain enough in the ways I want it to

I think I’ve handled the phrases like “damaged” and “suggest you apply for admin” roles quite nicely to be fair !

(And there’s plenty of people with mental health problems supporting people with mental health problems already - as discussed earlier!)

'Healed' was the language used in the setting, this person was held up as an example to others when in reality they were nowhere near far enough through recovery to be in the position they were. I think it is necessary to be extremely cautious and best to wait longer to be sure before putting someone in any position of authority over vulnerable people.

Thanks for the clarification - I’ll have much more influence over vulnerable people if I go back to my old job, but no therapy as the travelling commitments won’t allow for regular therapy at the time I have it unfortunately.

I am really sorry you had that experience, it is why there has been a lot of thought into jobs I apply for.

You can guarantee whatever you want.

But these professionals have been professionals before they were ill, and have the necessary experience and history to be able to complete their job.

You cannot walk into a new role in the middle of a mental health crisis. You are not in the right frame of mind and it is not suitable or appropriate to be helping others to try and recover when you have not done so yourself.

@DancingBeanstalk I agree.
Also speaking from experience I can look back on two years ago when I felt I was doing fine and convinced others I was as well, but I was still in early recovery and it's only looking back now that I can see that. No harm in waiting imo.

I think the part of no medication is not true I'm on SSRIs which are very common. I've worked inpatient services for 6 years. I have no intention in stopping the medication and it's never been an issue. I haven't needed secondary care services for 12 years. I know my own triggers and what is a limit for me. I wouldn't say the OP is ready as she seems upset by the application process. The thing is you will see and hear horrific things and you need to put your own issues aside and support that patient.

Ive previously been involved in recruiting for peer roles

For our team we would expect someone isnt in active treatment.
This especially means people not in active treatment with the trust, this protects the employee and the team. It breaks boundaries both ways, eg imagine being in clinical meetings about others with your therapist, or reading notes they wrote, or listening to the team refer someone to something they wont refer you to. Its hard to then be a member of the team, if everyone is acutely aware of your mh and wondering what you might bring up in the next session.
Equally as a clinician I share things with my collegues eg personal life stuff that i wouldnt share with someone whos treatment i was involved in.

We would also ask that people typically dont go to the same team they recieved treatment from. Its more common for people to work on wards they were once on, than CMHTS they had long term treatment under. It means they can start afresh in a professional capacity rather than worrying who knows what about them. As a clinician im often aware of things in notes that someone might not even know i know eg trauma histories or that theyve told me that they havent told others. Still localities interlap, and its likely youll end up in the same meeting as someone involved in your care, it massively helps when there is distance to this

If you are engaging in therapy especially group therapy then usually thats a sign of an acute problem. The threshold in my team is so high for regular therapy input (we also dont usually exceed 6 sessions) that I would see someone who is in nhs therapy as fairly actively unwell. If they were mostly functioning then they wont be elligible (in my area any way). Id probably feel different about someone accessing long term private psychotherapy as theres a different level of acuity.

Group therapy is also a good example. If you are attending that as a participant then other members might tell you things that they wouldnt tell a trust staff member. You would be professionally obliged to report things though (eg Patient A tells you who is Patient B but if you are also employed, then we wouldnt be able to say, she told a staff member but that staff member was in a diferent role that day so didnt do anything about it). you would also be engaging for your own good so presumably talking about raw things that you wouldnt share with someone whos care you were involved in. It would completely hamper the proccess as youd be constantly thinking do i want this person to know this? Is it something you want a co-worker who you are going to have a clinical debate with later to know? Or a patient who might then be reffered to you later?

We wouldnt include medication for that as its a long term solution
It really depends what the treatment is for example one of our peers was open to a local cmht simply as they were on an injection, we asked that they move to a team they didnt work in (so they werent having to show their bum to collegues but also that they could have honest conversations with their treating team without worrying it would get back to their boss or collegues might see it)

Peers are really highly valued in my team as clinicians. They are an equal member of the team thus not treated differently. They are expecting to be as robust as any other practitioner and subject to the same occupational health. I would actually say they need to be more robust, as they have very complex boundaries. As a clinician I can not disclose much about myself and things i find challenging, as peers there is typically more expectation that you will share about yourself which is difficult

Perhaps read what I’ve written.

I in once a week individual therapy.

(But many of you that work in mental health fields are proving my point on discrimination!)

anyway it’s being taken to court by others so let’s see what is said

(Also yet again I’m not in crisis) I’m in therapy for fifty minutes every week.

I'm only going to speak from my point of view so for context I am diagnosed bipolar type 1. I am currently stable thanks to medication and have been in once a week therapy for 2 years. I have been sectioned and have had very severe episodes of psychosis, I was lucky to come out of it. Even though I feel very stable right now (I feel my mental health hasn't been this good since I was a child) I can tota

can totally understand why I might be excluded for a role like this. I've had episodes whilst being on medication it hasn't always protected me and initially I might seem fine on the surface but what's going on inside my head is far far from normal. I could very well impact someone's treatment badly and do a lot of damage as it could go unnoticed for a week before it became evident that I was ill myself.